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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
99 Pete wrote:
Dynamic compression ratio, the longer the cam duration the more compression needed.

I imagine the increase in capacity will increase the static ratio quite a bit. What ratio are you aiming for and will you need to increase or decrease the chamber volume?


Compression ratio target is 11.5:1, current engine is just around 10.8:1.

The combustion chamber volume has been decreased, the head has over 2mm removed.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:55 pm 
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Location: N Yorks
Car Models: 9-5 Aero Estates, 9-5 2.2 TiD estate, 9-5 2.0 Saloon, 9000 Aero
Is that because you couldn't get the combustion volume you wanted from piston design changes alone ?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Would I be correct in thinking that taking that much off the head will require vernier sprockets for the cams?
However, I think you would be wanting to dial the cams in to an optimal position so figure this is killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:10 pm 
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carrera wrote:
Is that because you couldn't get the combustion volume you wanted from piston design changes alone ?


The pistons are flush with the block and flat top. Piston to valve clearance will be fine, but a dummy build will be carried out as a matter of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:22 pm 
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McVities wrote:
Would I be correct in thinking that taking that much off the head will require vernier sprockets for the cams?
However, I think you would be wanting to dial the cams in to an optimal position so figure this is killing 2 birds with 1 stone.


The same was done on Turbo Killers current engine, the cam timing was quite a way out, obviously.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:00 am 
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Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
Car Models: OLD SAABS,VOLVOS&VW...
AS AN ADVOCATE OF '8V' ENGINES, VERSUS '16V' :twisted: ? PLEASE DON'T FORGET 'MR.MCVITIES'...... :wink:

THAT, WE ARE ONLY DIALLING IN ONLY 'ONE ' CAMSHAFT HERE,ON 'TURBO KILLER..THE SEQUEL'.

OF COURSE,DURING ANY 'EVOLUTION' THE QUEST FOR MORE POWER AND TORQUE,WHETHER N/A OR TURBO,MORE IMPORTANTLY RELIABILITY,IS THE GOVERNING FACTOR.

SINCE 1994,I BEGAN PREPARING RACE AND RALLY 8V FIAT UNO'S WITH SCREAMING 1300 MOTORS,WITH LSD,WHICH HAD BEEN ORIGINALLY BUILT FOR THE 'UNO CHALLENGE' BACK IN THE LATE EIGHTIES....ENGINES BUILT BY 'AVANTI MOTORSPORT'.

http://www.avanti-motorsport.com/profile.htm
THESE LITTLE ENGINES,WERE PUTING OUT AROUND 90 BHP AT THE WHEELS,IN A CAR THAT WEIGHED LESS THAN 700 KG....
RATHER INTERESTINGLY (OR NOT),AN ALL 'NEW' 1300 8V ENGINE REBUILD BY 'AVANTI',ON A 'SEEMINGLY' WELL-USED MOTORSPORT FIAT 1300 ENGINE,RELEASED JUST 3 BHP MORE.....
THESE THINGS WOULD REV,TO NEARLY NINE GRAND,AND NEVER,EVER BLEW UP..... :shock:

AT A SIMILAR TIME,THE ACQUISITION OF A FOREST PREPARED, VERY QUICK 'SAAB V4' TOOK PLACE.
AFTER AROUND 12 MONTHS,I MANAGED TO 'BUZZ' THE ENGINE....... AND THE 'MOTORSPORT BUDGET' DICTATED THAT,I WOULD HAVE TO FIX IT....
THIS WAS PROBABALY MY FIRST 'HANDS ON' INTERVENTION INTO COMPETITION ENGINE INTERNALS,PREVIOUSLY DEALING WITH JUST STANDARD ROAD ENGINES....

IT WOULD BE A 'FAST' LEARNING CURVE,THE MECHANICAL ENGINEERING BACKGROUND,WAS INFINITELY BENEFICIAL....I CAN STILL REMEMBER CURIOUSLY PEERING INTO THE 'V4' CYLINDER HEAD PORTS,WHICH HAD INCREDIBLE AMOUNTS OF WORKMANSHIP DONE,AND IN SOME PLACES WERE 'PAPER THIN'....
IT MUST BE REMEBERED,THAT BY 1994? A 'SAAB V4',RALLY PREPARED,OR NOT? WAS CONSIDERED 'OLD HAT'?.........

AT THAT TIME,I CAN DISTINCTLY REMEMBER......A FRIEND OF MINE,WITH A 5 CYLINDER 2.2 AUDI COUPE? WHOM RATHER SCOFFED,AT THE LOOK, OF THE LITTLE BATTLE-SCARRED SAAB 96? RATHER LESS SO,WHEN I WAS PUSHING HIM TO MOVE OVER,AND LET ME PAST....
I ACTUALLY WEN'T TO VIEW&TEST DRIVE THE V4,ARRIVING IN A ROVER 825 V6 HONDA POWERED,AUTOMATIC.
'IT' COULD BARELY KEEP UP,WITH THE 96 EITHER..... :shock:

SADLY,I NEVER GOT THE V4 ON THE 'ROLLING ROAD'......AT THE TIME,THE 'COST' I CONSIDERED,TO BE A 'WASTE OF MONEY',WHICH WAS PUT TOWARDS YET ANOTHER 'ENTRY FEE',IN A STAGE RALLY. :roll:

OF COURSE NEXT UP CAME THE 'SAAB 99 EMS' RALLY CAR I BUILT,WITH AN ENGINE BUILT BY 'PHIL WILKS' SAAB DEALERS.FROM THE NORTH EAST,WITH HEAD PORTING AND STANDARD VALVE SIZES,WITH A 2.1 BORE.
153 BHP ON TWIN 40 DELLORTO'S,AND AROUND 135 LB/FT TORQUE....

THEN,THE ALL STEEL MINI 1380 WAS BUILT,GIVING JUST OVER 100 BHP,AT THE WHEELS. THIS WOULD ALSO REV,LIKE THE LITTLE FIATS......AN INCREDIBLY QUICK,IF NOT UTTERLY DEAFENING 'RELIABLE' MACHINE,TO BE COMPETITIVE IN.
ALBEIT WITH PRE-EMPTIVE, ANNUAL ENGINE REBUILDS,AS THE BIG-END SHELLS,WOULD TAKE A HAMMERING,AT THAT NEARING 10,000 RPM.

AND THEN,OF COURSE TO TURBO-CHARGING,AGAIN 99T 8V B20 ENGINES.....PUSHING THE STANDARD ENGINE COMPONENTS,YET AGAIN....IN MOTORSPORT.
AND NOW? I AM ABOUT TO ENTER THE REALMS OF 'DE-COMPRESSION' PLATES... IN BOTH TURBOCHARGED SAAB 8V AND 16V ENGINES.

MUCH DISCUSSION,HAS TAKEN PLACE,TAKING EXPERIENCE FROM KNOWLEGABLE HEADS.IT IS CERTAINLY A JUMP INTO THE 'UNKNOWN' WITH THE 99T B20 ENGINE.....WILL IT WORK? IT WILL HAVE A 'FLOWED BIG VALVE HEAD' HOWEVER...

AS FAR AS 'TURBO KILLER.....THE SEQUEL' GOES ?

WELL,THE BIGGEST ISSUE HERE,IS THAT WE HAVEN'T DECIDED YET? EXACTLY HOW,WE ARE GOING TO GET THE ''2.5 BOTTOM END'' BACK FROM SWEDEN....NOT THAT IT IS AN 'ISSUE'? RATHER THE 'WHEN AND,THE HOW'.....

MENTION WAS MADE IN A 'PREVIOUS POST' THAT 200 BHP,FROM A '2.0 PINTO' IS DONE 'RELATIVELY EASILY' ?

AS WE CAN SEE,FROM THE AMOUNT OF WORK,JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE,ABOUT THE HEAD MACHINING AND PORTING,FLOW BENCH TESTING AND CALCULATIONS.....?

I WOULD BE RATHER HESITANT,TO TERM THIS WHOLE 'PROJECT' EASY......

FAR,FROM IT.....

A-SERIES,BMC,FIAT 1300 AND PINTO'S HAVE ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE......MANY TIMES OVER,SO IT IS 'EASIER' TO KNOW,WHAT WORK'S AND WHAT DOESN'T. INDEED GETTING 200 BHP FROM A PINTO N/A,USUALLY INVOLVES A MACHINED OFFSET CRANK,AND 2.2,OR 2.4 ENGINE CAPACITY.


'SAAB' TUNED ENGINES,ARE A LITTLE LESS PROMINENT.

MORE INTERESTING READING HERE....FROM THE VENERABLE 'DAVE VIZARD'& 'DAVE BAKER'.

NOTE PARTICULALRY DAVE BAKERS,COMMENTS ABOUT THE '8V VERSUS 16V' GOLF GTI ENGINE'S IN THE(BACK THEN) 'SLICK 50' CHAMPIONSHIP.......

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/top ... 096171&i=0

AND 'NO' I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 'SCIENCE' OF IT ALL, I AM 'STILL' LEARNING....

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 pm
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BIRDIEMANGO wrote:

MENTION WAS MADE IN A 'PREVIOUS POST' THAT 200 BHP,FROM A '2.0 PINTO' IS DONE 'RELATIVELY EASILY' ?

AS WE CAN SEE,FROM THE AMOUNT OF WORK,JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE,ABOUT THE HEAD MACHINING AND PORTING,FLOW BENCH TESTING AND CALCULATIONS.....?

I WOULD BE RATHER HESITANT,TO TERM THIS WHOLE 'PROJECT' EASY......

FAR,FROM IT.....

A-SERIES,BMC,FIAT 1300 AND PINTO'S HAVE ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE......MANY TIMES OVER,SO IT IS 'EASIER' TO KNOW,WHAT WORK'S AND WHAT DOESN'T. INDEED GETTING 200 BHP FROM A PINTO N/A,USUALLY INVOLVES A MACHINED OFFSET CRANK,AND 2.2,OR 2.4 ENGINE CAPACITY.


'SAAB' TUNED ENGINES,ARE A LITTLE LESS PROMINENT


Hi Birdie, perhaps the phrase 'relatively easily' wasn't the best one to use and should have read something more like 'within reach' or 'achieveable' would have been more appropriate. I'm not sure the same can be said for the Saab head regardless of how much development goes into it. From the flow figures quoted here and on the Puma racing sites they are just worlds apart:
Standard Saab: 80 CFM Standard Pinto: 140 CFM
Modified Saab: 103 CFM Modified Pinto: 190 CFM
So even in modified form the Saab head is still well short of the standard Pinto head.

Don't get me wrong, it hurts me to admit it! and it's only through reading this thread that this is how it seems to me.

In other respects I seem to remember the Pinto was a rather nasty engine: harsh, noisy, thirsty, unreliable and totally knackered before a Saab engine was even run in!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:16 am 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
[/quote]
Hi Birdie, perhaps the phrase 'relatively easily' wasn't the best one to use and should have read something more like 'within reach' or 'achieveable' would have been more appropriate. I'm not sure the same can be said for the Saab head regardless of how much development goes into it. From the flow figures quoted here and on the Puma racing sites they are just worlds apart:
Standard Saab: 80 CFM Standard Pinto: 140 CFM
Modified Saab: 103 CFM Modified Pinto: 190 CFM
So even in modified form the Saab head is still well short of the standard Pinto head.

Don't get me wrong, it hurts me to admit it! and it's only through reading this thread that this is how it seems to me.

In other respects I seem to remember the Pinto was a rather nasty engine: harsh, noisy, thirsty, unreliable and totally knackered before a Saab engine was even run in![/quote]

You have to be careful and mindful of flow figures, some use 10'' or 28'' of water pressure. There are also quite a few different Pinto heads!

I was given the graph below, ignore the labels on it. Top flow is standard Pinto head, middle is standard Saab head, lower is standard exhaust.
Image

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99 EMS 77
Lancer EVO 6 TME red
Lancer EVO 6 TME black
GR Yaris 21 Red


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
MORE INTERESTING READING HERE....FROM THE VENERABLE 'DAVE VIZARD'& 'DAVE BAKER'.

NOTE PARTICULALRY DAVE BAKERS,COMMENTS ABOUT THE '8V VERSUS 16V' GOLF GTI ENGINE'S IN THE(BACK THEN) 'SLICK 50' CHAMPIONSHIP.......

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/top ... 096171&i=0

AND 'NO' I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 'SCIENCE' OF IT ALL, I AM 'STILL' LEARNING....


I posted that link on the very first post on this thread :roll:

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99 EMS 77
Lancer EVO 6 TME red
Lancer EVO 6 TME black
GR Yaris 21 Red


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am 
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Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
Car Models: OLD SAABS,VOLVOS&VW...
APOLOGIES DAVE :roll: :wink:

THE OLD GREY MATTER,IS NOT WHAT IT WAS....

I JUST 'TINKER', JUST A 'FEW' CARS,OVER THE YEARS.... :wall:

NOTHING SPECIAL.....

SOMETIMES,EVEN THOUGH I 'BOOKMARK' A PAGE OF TECHNICAL READING MATERIAL,WHILST IN THE BATH? I HAVE TO GO BACK,AND RE-READ IT THE NEXT NIGHT...AS THE MIND START'S WANDERING,WITH 'IMAGINEERING'.....EVEN THOUGH I AM READING,IT'S NOT GOING IN !

BIT LIKE, LISTENING TO THE WIFE....

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:21 am 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
The Pinto is probably the best comparison to the Saab 8v from that era, the Pinto has the edge on tuning.

Standard pinto inlet flow is around 89 cfm using the injection head (Cortina head around 83cfm)
Standard 8v Saab head is 80 cfm.

Both heads can be much improved, its just knowing what to do or in some cases, what not to do.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:02 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Most of the components on the 8v Saab engine are ridiculously heavy, reducing the weight of as many parts as possible with lighter modern quality parts is a good thing.
The standard conrod weighs in at 662g, the forged conrod I have weighs in at 510g, (both minus conrod bolts) a weight saving of 152g, multiply this by four and that's a total saving of 608g.

Standard 8v Saab conrod.
Image

Forged conrod.
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:37 am 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Current state of tune.
https://youtu.be/3j_NGnKYiQw

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:12 pm 
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Location: Aberdeen,UK
Car Models: 96 V4, 99, C900, C900 Vert
Private video.
I can't access it from my phone :cry:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:16 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Stig wrote:
Private video.
I can't access it from my phone :cry:


Should play now.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Car Models: 96 V4, 99, C900, C900 Vert
Got it.
Great stuff :P

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Hopefully the 2.5 bottom end should arrive in the next few weeks, along with some extra goodies.
The work on the bottom end was carried out by an employee of Trollspeed.
Image
Image
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:39 am 
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Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
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THE ORIGINAL TWO DOOR 99 TURBO RALLY CAR....VERY AGGRESIVE STANCE :wink:

CLICK TO ENLARGE


Attachments:
10749933_10201910310597762_8885856341736495886_o.jpg
10749933_10201910310597762_8885856341736495886_o.jpg [ 138.47 KiB | Viewed 1880 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:52 am 
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Probably as wide as you could go without fitting plastic bits.

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:36 am 
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BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
THE ORIGINAL TWO DOOR 99 TURBO RALLY CAR....VERY AGGRESIVE STANCE :wink:

CLICK TO ENLARGE


No wonder Stig wanted power steering!


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