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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Location: Fliptop Towers, Trumptonshire
Car Models: One or two...
We once used some TR6 steel wheels on a 78 twin carb Combi, along with some old turbo Bilsteins. They were a similar offset to yours.

It had pretty good grip but I found it tram lined like a bad un.Looked great, but was hard work to drive. What's the collective on how to avoid that with such offset wheels, and what's the Turbo Killer like in that regard, Dave?

99 Pete wrote:
BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
THE ORIGINAL TWO DOOR 99 TURBO RALLY CAR....VERY AGGRESIVE STANCE :wink:

CLICK TO ENLARGE


No wonder Stig wanted power steering!
Especially with an EMS steering rack!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:28 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Fliptop wrote:
We once used some TR6 steel wheels on a 78 twin carb Combi, along with some old turbo Bilsteins. They were a similar offset to yours.

It had pretty good grip but I found it tram lined like a bad un.Looked great, but was hard work to drive. What's the collective on how to avoid that with such offset wheels, and what's the Turbo Killer like in that regard, Dave?
Especially with an EMS steering rack!


Its fairly heavy at low speeds, obviously, but once you're rolling its ok.
It handles great, but I've given the suspension and steering a lot of attention. EMS rack with uprated inner tie rod bronze cups, along with alloy rack mounts and the drivers side mount has been welded to the rack itself, so no movement at all. Lower wishbone bushes are black poly, upper still standard until I next take the engine out. Lesjofors springs all round, custom triple adjustable Avo on front and Koni classic on the rear, rear axle poly bushed and rear arb black polly bushes.
I do have electric steering all ready to go in, probably get done when I'm fitting the new engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:16 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 99
99 EMS, What is the offset and width of your wheels? What size tyres do you use?

Also, anyone know the specs of the alloys on the 99 Turbo Rally car?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:53 pm 
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KoogiA17 wrote:
99 EMS, What is the offset and width of your wheels? What size tyres do you use?


7 1/2'' x 16'', ET30. Tyres are currently 205 x 50 x 16, Bridgestone Potenza.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:20 am 
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WORKS CARS RAN COMPOMOTIVES,I BELIEVE......


Attachments:
STIG 99.jpg
STIG 99.jpg [ 188.76 KiB | Viewed 1891 times ]
1560-80blomqvist-ypres.jpg
1560-80blomqvist-ypres.jpg [ 45.88 KiB | Viewed 1891 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:30 am 
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Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
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WHILST IN SWEDEN,WE HAVE ONLY SEEN THEM(COMPOMOTIVES) EITHER FITTED TO A CAR? OR FOR SALE AS INDIVIDUALS,NEVER A SET....

TRYING TO FIND WHEELS(ONE-PIECE) TO FIT A 114.3 PCD,WITH THE CORRECT OFFSET,IS THE DIFFICULT PART....ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THAT,THEN THE CENTRE BORE IS YOUR NEXT ISSUE......

EVERY MACHINE ENGINEERING SHOP I APPROACHED,SOME FIFTEEN YEARS AGO,DIDN'T WAN'T TO GET INVOLVED,OR WANTED RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY,TO MACHINE THE WHEEL CENTRES,TO THE SAAB HUB.

OF COURSE,IF YOU ASK? COMPOMOTIVE MAY WELL MANUFACTURE SOME 'SPLIT RIMS' TO YOUR SPEC....


Attachments:
Picture0307(6).jpg
Picture0307(6).jpg [ 17.77 KiB | Viewed 1891 times ]
Picture0305(6).jpg
Picture0305(6).jpg [ 34.45 KiB | Viewed 1891 times ]
Picture0306(8).jpg
Picture0306(8).jpg [ 38.23 KiB | Viewed 1891 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:42 am 
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Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
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AN ALTERNATIVE,TO WIDEN THE SPECTRUM OF WHEEL FITTING,AND/OR OFFSET?IS TO EITHER FIT THE COMPLETE 108 PCD C900 FRONT HUBS AND REAR AXLE,OR USE ADAPTER/SPACER MOUNTS,SUCH AS THESE......

TO GO FROM 114.3 PCD,TO 108 PCD....


Attachments:
Picture0338.jpg
Picture0338.jpg [ 49.61 KiB | Viewed 1890 times ]
Picture0331_2.jpg
Picture0331_2.jpg [ 64.29 KiB | Viewed 1890 times ]
Picture0334_1.jpg
Picture0334_1.jpg [ 76.4 KiB | Viewed 1890 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:31 am 
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Car Models: Saab 99
The Compomotives look to have quite an aggressive offset.

99 EMS wrote:

7 1/2'' x 16'', ET30. Tyres are currently 205 x 50 x 16, Bridgestone Potenza.


How is the clearance in the wheel housing?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:28 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
KoogiA17 wrote:
The Compomotives look to have quite an aggressive offset.

99 EMS wrote:

7 1/2'' x 16'', ET30. Tyres are currently 205 x 50 x 16, Bridgestone Potenza.


How is the clearance in the wheel housing?


I have never had any issues at all with this set up, no fouling or rubbing at all.

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900i 87
900T 81
99 TurboKiller
99 EMS 77
Lancer EVO 6 TME red
Lancer EVO 6 TME black
GR Yaris 21 Red


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Location: Fliptop Towers, Trumptonshire
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We used 205/50/15s (so much smaller diameter) on the C900 track car, with Jamex springs and ET29(??) 7x15 Saab alloys. That rubbed like hell at the back under compression, until we swapped the Aero dampers (Sachs sport) for yellow Bilsteins. Didn't help that the bump stops were goosed :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:59 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 99
99 EMS wrote:

I have never had any issues at all with this set up, no fouling or rubbing at all.


I was wondering how it compared with Birdie's Clarion replica, as I have a quote from him that the 7.5J x 16 ET 30 Borbets left 5mm clearance in the rear arch.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
KoogiA17 wrote:
99 EMS wrote:

I have never had any issues at all with this set up, no fouling or rubbing at all.


I was wondering how it compared with Birdie's Clarion replica, as I have a quote from him that the 7.5J x 16 ET 30 Borbets left 5mm clearance in the rear arch.


At which point in the rear arch?

The closest points are the spring links and the rear links.

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Lancer EVO 6 TME red
Lancer EVO 6 TME black
GR Yaris 21 Red


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:03 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 99
According to Birdie: Rear inner arch shock mount / rear torque arm / rear spring pan


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:33 am 
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KoogiA17 wrote:
99 EMS wrote:

I have never had any issues at all with this set up, no fouling or rubbing at all.


I was wondering how it compared with Birdie's Clarion replica, as I have a quote from him that the 7.5J x 16 ET 30 Borbets left 5mm clearance in the rear arch.



THE WHEELS FITTED TO 'TURBO KILLER' ARE BORBET 'B', THE WHEELS I HAVE FITTED ON THE CLARION 99T,ARE
BORBET 'A'.

BOTH DESIGNS OF WHEEL ARE 16 INCH,BOTH ET30,BOTH 7.5J........

IN OVER TEN YEARS OF USING THE 'CLARION 99T' IN MOTORSPORT,AND ALSO 2500 MILES TO 'TROLLHATTAN' AND BACK,(FULLY LADEN,AT TIMES WITH FOUR ADULTS& A BOOT FULL) FITTED WITH THE ABOVE 'BORBET A',THE TYRES,(205 45 16 BRIDGESTONES)HAVE NEVER RUBBED THE ARCHES....OR, ANY SUSPENSION COMPONENTS.


INDEED,THE 'ISSUE' HERE,IS THAT 'INCORRECT' OFFSET, 'WILL' ALLOW THE FRONT TYRES,TO CONTACT THE FRONT ROAD SPRINGS,ESPECIALLY ON FULL 'DROOP'(CAR JACKED UP),GOING LOCK TO LOCK.

ON THE REAR,THE FIRST POINT OF CONTACT,WITH AN 'INCORRECT' OFFSET INNER WHEEL RIM,IS THE REAR SRING PAN...THIS CAN BE 'ADJUSTED' IN THE AFFECTED AREA,WITH A 'BALL-PEIN' HAMMER,TO GENTLY 'DISH' THE OFFENDING PROFILE OF THE REAR SPRING PAN, GIVE AN EXTRA FEW MM,OF THE REQUIRED CLEARANCE.
IT MUST BE BOURNE IN MIND,THAT BOTH TYRES,AND SUSPENSION COMPONENTS,IN USE IN 'MOTORSPORT' PLACE HUGE LOADS,ONTO SUSPENSION BUSHES,AND TYRE WALLS,SUCH THAT EVERYTHING MOVES,UNDER HARD CORNERING,ESPECIALLY ON TARMAC.

THE REAR 'TORQUE ARMS',THAT LINK THE AXLE TO THE BODY,ALSO SIT CLOSER TO THE ,INSIDE RIM OF THE 'BORBETS',WITH THE ET30 OFFSET,BUT NOT SO MUCH,THAT IT IS AN ISSUE...


THE LOWER THE TYRE PROFILE,THE LESS DISTORTION,OF THE TYRE WALL....

HOWEVER,AS YOU INCREASE THE 'FOOTPRINT' OF THE TYRE,NOT ONLY DOES IT GIVE AN ALMOST(INCONCIEVABLE) INCREASE IN GRIP, ROADHOLDING&BRAKING.THE ADDITIONAL LOADING ON THE 'WHEEL BEARINGS' ,AND THE DRIVETRAIN,IS ALSO INCREASED....(LESS FRONT WHEELSPIN,MORE CONTACT SURFACE AREA OF THE TYRE,ALONG WITH AN INCREASE IN THE CO-EFFICIENT OF FRICTION,WITH THE ROAD SURFACE).

TO ILLUSTRATE THIS,IN A MORE 'MODERN' SCENARIO.....?

REGARDS THE 'JAGUAR I-PACE', FOR EXAMPLE. WHICH WAS DESIGNED PURELY AS AN 'ELECTRIC VEHICLE'.

TO ACHIEVE 'MAXIMUM RANGE',ON THE BATTERIES,THE UNDERSIDE,OF THE 'BELLYPAN' OF THE CAR IS COMPLETELY FLAT,THE DOOR HANDLES RETRACT,AND PARTICULAR ATTENTION,WAS PAID TO THE AERODYNAMICS OF THE CAR,IN IT'S DESIGN.THIS IS RATHER CONVENIENT,TO HOUSE THE HUGE BATTERY PACK,UNDER THE VEHICLE FLOORING,TO LOWER THE PROFILE OF THE CAR,AND IT'S CENTRE OF GRAVITY.

LOW FRICTION TYRES,ALONG WITH AESTHETICALLY,AERODYNAMICALLY DESIGNED ALLOY WHEELS ARE FITTED.....

IF 'WE' CHOOSE,TO CHANGE THOSE WHEELS AND TYRES,FOR A LARGER DIAMETER,AND/OR WIDTH? THEN THE WIDER FOOTPRINT,AS IT PUSHES THROUGH THE AIR,GREATER 'CONTACT' SURFACE AREA,INCREASE IN FRICTION,WILL HAVE A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE GIVEN 'MILEAGE RANGE' OF THE VEHICLE.
WHILST TO THE DRIVER,AN INCREASE IN GRIP,THE 'STANCE' OF THE VEHICLE,AND IMPROVEMENT IN BRAKING/STOPPING,MAY BE EXPERIENCED.

BACK TO THE 99/C900 HOWEVER? THE REAR AXLE,CAN BE COMPLIMENTED BY THE USE OF FITTING THE C900 REAR ANTI-ROLL BAR (THROW THE FRONT C900 ANTI-ROLL BAR IN THE BIN!).
THIS STIFFENS THE REAR END CONSIDERABLY,ALLOWOING AN INSIDE REAR WHEEL TO KICK UP,UNDER HARD CORNERING,EFFECTIVELY LOADING THE OUTSIDE REAR TYRE,WHICH WILL THEN START TO BREAK TRACTION,OR SLIDE PROGRESSIVELY....
OF COURSE,I COMBINE THIS WITH LEFT-FOOT BRAKING,TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE CAR,ALWAYS TRYING TO KEEP THE FRONT WHEELS,IN STRAIGHT AHEAD POSITION........

AS OPPOSED TO 'NOT HAVING' THE REAR ANTI-ROLL BAR,WHICH ALLOWS MORE REAR BODY ROLL,TO THE POINT WHERE BOTH REAR TYRES,WILL SUDDENLY LOSE GRIP,WHICH IS A LOT MORE DRAMATIC,AND LESS PREDICTIVE TO THE DRIVER...GIVING SUDDEN SNAP-OVERSTEER.

OF COURSE SUSPENSION SET-UP AND GEOMETRY,IS MUCH A PERSONAL CHOICE.IT MAY,OR MAY NOT SUIT A PARTICULAR DRIVING STYLE.
40MM LOWERING SPRINGS,BILSTEINS ALL AROUND,THAT C900 REAR ANTI-ROLL BAR,COMBINED WITH THE 7.5J ET30 ,16 INCH BORBETS,205 45 16 BRIDGESTONES,GIVES THE 'CLARION 99T' SUPERB,PREDICTABLE ROAD HOLDING,IN BOTH THE DRY,OR THE WET...I DO HOWEVER,HAVE RUBBER SUSPENSION BUSHES,FITTED ALL ROUND,APART FROM THE SHOCK ABSORBERS,WHICH ARE POLYBUSHED,ALONG WITH THE LONGER REAR AXLE 'TORQUE ARMS',FROM A LATER CAR.
A FURTHER GEOMETRY SET-UP,WITH A CUSTOMISED SPIRIT LEVEL,AND SOME STRING,GAVE ME THE CAMBER&TOE SETTINGS THAT I REQUIRED..ON THE FRONT....

CURRENTLY,MUCH CAREFUL MEASURING IS TAKING PLACE,TO SEE IF I CAN RUN 9J 16 INCH BORBET 'A' 108 PCD,WITH AN OFFEST ET15,ON THE 'DEVILS PLAYGROUND' 99T, TO FILL THOSE HUGE FIBRGLASS ARCHES,YET KEEP THE INSIDE EDGE OF THE WHEEL RIM,JUST 5MM FROM THE SUSPENSION COMPONENTS...
YET,THE BIGGER,OR(HEAVIER) WIDER THE WHEEL AND TYRE? THE MORE LOAD WE EXERT ON THE SUSPENSION(AND STEERING)AND WE MUST TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT....
OR THAT 'SUPPOSED' INCREASE IN GRIP,AS WE GUN THE THROTTLE,MAY WELL TRANSLATE INTO UNSTABILTY,AT HIGH SPEED,OVER BUMPY TARMAC...WITH THE DAMPERS/SPRINGS(AND DRIVER) STRUGGLING WITH THAT EXTRA WEIGHT.

'MOTORSPORT' HIGH SPEED(CORNERING) &STABILTY,CAN BE COMPENSATED FOR SOMEWHAT,WITH FRONT CAMBER/CASTOR ADJUSTMENTS......GIVING INCREASED STEERING FEEDBACK,FASTER SELF-CORRECTION OF THE STEERING WHEEL,TO TRY AND HELP THE DRIVER,PARTICULARLY IN OLDER NON-POWER ASSISTED STEERING,SET-UPS,AS WITH THE 99.

ALLEGEDLY,THE FACTORY RALLY 99'S,ALSO HAD THE REAR AXLE,MODIFIED IN A JIG,TO GIVE 1 DEGREE,NEGATIVE CAMBER ALSO...AND I 'THINK' THEY DID THIS WITH THE 'MOBIL' RACE SERIES C900 T8,AS WELL.
SOME HAVE DEEMED IT NECESSARY,TO FIT AN ADJUSTABLE REAR 'PANHARD ROD',TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LOWERING OF THE SUSPENSION........
I HAVEN'T FELT THE NEED TO GO 'THIS' FAR YET....
INDEED IN IT'S CURRENT SET-UP,IT WAS ENOUGH TO ACHIEVE 21ST OVERALL,AND 2ND IN CLASS ON PART OF THE 'ISLE OF MAN'.... 'TT CIRCUIT'...ON ROAD TYRES,AGAINST CARS WITH FAR BIGGER ENGINES,WHICH WERE IN FULL RACE SPEC,ON SLICKS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWZ2d_ ... g&index=12


BUT THEN,WE START TO GET INTO THE REALMS OF THE UK MOTORSPORT 'BLUE BOOK',WHICH GIVES THE PARAMETERS,OF WHETHER SUSPENSION,PICK-UP POINTS CAN BE MOVED FROM ORIGINAL FACTORY SPEC,ADJUSTABLE LINK ARMS.......ETC.




NOW AT RISK,OF GOING TOO FAR 'OFF TOPIC',I HOPE THAT ANSWERS A FEW QUESTIONS,THE READERS MAY HAVE,ABOUT WHEELS,SUSPENSION GEOMETRY,ETC........ THAT, HAVE COME ABOUT?

WHILST 'TURBO KILLER' AND THE 'CLARION 99T',ARE VERY DIFFERENT IN THEIR POWER DELIVIRIES,AND BOTH DAVE AND I,DISAGREE OVER CERTAIN ELEMENTS,IN THEIR BUILD AND CONSTRUCTION? I SUPPOSE BOTH IN THEIR CURRENT STATE OF TUNE,GIVING SIMILAR POWER OUTPUTS,IT WOULD BE AN IDEA,TO 'PITCH' BOTH CARS,AGAINST EACH OTHER......?

BUT THEN,WE DID THAT ALREADY...... :wink: :corn:


WHAT WE HAVEN'T DONE,IS TO TRY AGAIN,WITH THE CAR'S IN THEIR NEW 'STATE' OF TUNE....

IT MAY, TAKE A WHILE.... :roll: :loco:


Attachments:
USING ALL THE ROAD,AND A BIT MORE....1.JPG
USING ALL THE ROAD,AND A BIT MORE....1.JPG [ 67.31 KiB | Viewed 1828 times ]
99 TRIO.jpg
99 TRIO.jpg [ 229.27 KiB | Viewed 1828 times ]
cadwell-20111001-100.jpg
cadwell-20111001-100.jpg [ 229.08 KiB | Viewed 1828 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 am 
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Car Models: Saab 99
That was some post Birdie.

Can't find the relevant forum post (I didn't save the link) but I copied & saved, word for word and in block capitals, the comment about you having 5mm clearance with your Borbet's and specific tyres.
Then used that 5mm value to determine the inner clearance for various width of rim & tyre for various offsets. Was alos able to calculate whether or not the tyre would protrude beyond the outer wheel arch lip thereby requiring some form of wheel arch extension.

Going to suggest that a 9J, 15ET rim with a 255 tyre is going to rub, same rim with a 245 tyre would be touching, 235 tyre should give you similar clearance to which you enjoy now.

Having said that, I couldn't find any 16", 235 or wider tyres that have a similar overall diameter as the 205/45/16.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:58 am 
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BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
AN ALTERNATIVE,TO WIDEN THE SPECTRUM OF WHEEL FITTING,AND/OR OFFSET?IS TO EITHER FIT THE COMPLETE 108 PCD C900 FRONT HUBS AND REAR AXLE,OR USE ADAPTER/SPACER MOUNTS,SUCH AS THESE......

TO GO FROM 114.3 PCD,TO 108 PCD....


If you are going to use this kind of spacer just for aesthetics, so you can get your favourite wheels fitted, then all will be fine, however, if you are more concerned about handling and unsprung weight then maybe you should consider other avenues.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 99
There are wheels available to fit 4 x 114.3 PCD in a number of diameters, widths & ETs, which come with a large enough centre bore. The choice is not so limited.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:33 am 
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99 EMS wrote:
BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
AN ALTERNATIVE,TO WIDEN THE SPECTRUM OF WHEEL FITTING,AND/OR OFFSET?IS TO EITHER FIT THE COMPLETE 108 PCD C900 FRONT HUBS AND REAR AXLE,OR USE ADAPTER/SPACER MOUNTS,SUCH AS THESE......

TO GO FROM 114.3 PCD,TO 108 PCD....


If you are going to use this kind of spacer just for aesthetics, so you can get your favourite wheels fitted, then all will be fine, however, if you are more concerned about handling and unsprung weight then maybe you should consider other avenues.


SPACERS,WERE USED ON THE 1380 MINI TO OFFSET&WIDEN THE TRACK,ALONG WITH AN INCREASE IN CASTOR,WITH FULLY ADJUSTABLE FRONT&REAR SUSPENSION.USING THE SAME WIDTH 'WELLER' WHEELS,AS PREVIOUS,WITH YOKOHAMA A 008'S.
THIS SET UP WAS ENOUGH,FOR US TO BE JUST OUTSIDE THE TOP TEN,IN TARMAC 'STAGE RALLY' EVENTS....

THAT WAS AGAINST IN EARLY 2000'S,AGAINST THE LIKES,OF ESCORT COSWORTH,SUBARU IMPREZA& MITSUBISHI EVO'S WHETHER 'TOMMI MAKINEN' OR NOT....

DRIVEN BY A 'BLOKE' THAT YOU KNOW....?


GOT THIS FAR IN LIFE,CONSIDERING 'ALL' MY AVENUES,WHEREUPON OTHER'S, HAVE COME TO A VERY ABRUPT 'DEAD END'... :wink:

YES 'KOOGI A17', A BROAD SELECTION OF WHEELS,ARE AVAILABLE,AT A 'PRICE'.....

THE VERY 'ETHOS' OF ENGINEERING&DESIGN ,IS BEING ABLE TO SOLVE THE OFFENDING 'ISSUE',WITH BOTH THE HAND&MIND.....

ONE CAN SPEND, AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY 'TRYING' TO MAKE A CAR, GO QUICKLY?......

DID YOU NOT HAVE SPACERS/ADPATERS FITTED WITH YOUR 'FAVOURITE' WHEELS FITTED HERE? DAVE......

HMMMMM... :corn:


Attachments:
File0202.jpg
File0202.jpg [ 314.45 KiB | Viewed 1730 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:19 am 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
..

DID YOU NOT HAVE SPACERS/ADPATERS FITTED WITH YOUR 'FAVOURITE' WHEELS FITTED HERE? DAVE......

HMMMMM... :corn:


The earlier incarnations of this car had front adapters, as time went on, they proved of no advantage, the big advantage was the ability to have better brakes. I'm sure in this picture I was running sport hubs with V4 calipers, so the 5 stud to 4 stud adapter was passed on.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:50 pm 
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I am currently enjoying all the technical details and info in this thread.
I for one hope it stays on topic and objective. Let's keep away from anything that could be taken as willy waving or personal.
There are a great many ways to skin a racing cat :wink:

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