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 Post subject: B204 RWD Ascona-B
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:04 am 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
Hello!

First, let me introduce myself: I am Dutch, 46 years old, mechanical engineer, live in Bad Bentheim - Germany and I have an Ascona-B already since 1994. Although the car has licence plates (so I can run it on public roads; for testing in particular) I use this car mostly on track-days (Dutch TT-circuit, Nürburgring, Spa-Francorchamps etc.) . I already had a range of engines in this car: 2.0 & 2.2 CIH, c20XE and z20LET (Astra-turbo engine).
A lot of adaptions/changes have been made on this car. Can all be (read)/seen in my topic on the Dutch Opel Forum: http://www.opel-forum.nl/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=117147

The very last Opel turbo-engine in my Ascona-B was fast, but not heavy-duty enough for circuit racing. After turbo- and piston failures I decided to look for a more reliable/stronger engine. So I decided to swap to a Saab B204. That is what I am working on currently.

Image

Image

I also post the engine swap on the Dutch Saab Forum.
http://www.saabforum.nl/viewtopic.php?f ... 3#p1367403

Short resume of actual configuration:
- Supra MA61 gearbox - Aisin W57
- Bellhousing Manta 1.8s (4 speed manual) adapted.
- Volvo 240 rear axle with 75% LSD in 4-link
- Front brake discs Mercedes SL R129 Edition 334x32mm
- Front Brembo brake calipers Peugeot 607 3.0-24V
- Saab B204 with Volvo TD04HL-19T, Volvo valve springs 9135130, Catcams 6100202, DTA motormanagement (I know it is almost swearing when speaking to Saab-people, who always try to convince me of Trionic 5)
- Radiator/cooler Mercedes W201 190E 2.5-16V
- Electric cooling water pump BMW Z4 (temp/rev controlled)
- Oil cooler Mercedes van
- Intercooler BMW E46 320-330D
- Intake Throttle Supra MKII 7MGTE
- Clutch Toyota Supra 7MGTE
etc.

It runs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSyp_kUMjLE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQPDun1vpVA

But there is a problem: Oil pressure
and I am starting to become a little desperate, because I just fitted a brand new crank, main bearings, rod end bearings and it almost looks as the problem is still there.
When I start the engine. Oil pressure started at about almost 4 bars idling (looks OK by then).
I just let it run idling at approx 1.000rpm and as the engine temperature increased pressure dropped to 3-, 2.5-, 2-, 1.5-, 1.4bar in about 20 minutes. Just idling.
Pressure relieve valve looks OK / sits closed. I checked the O-ring that is around the oil tube and the bore in my special adapter where usually the oil filter is mounted. This was also OK. Bore 19.0mm, tube 14.0mm, O-ring 13x3mm. Mounting grease still there. Absolutely no leakage there as well.
I can only think of the oil pump yet, but I can not confirm this by knowledge, sizes or tolerances, so?
If there was something wrong with the sump or suction tube, then it makes no sense that it gets worse when temperature increases as the oil gets thinner and resistance becomes less. Also at higher revs there is pressure (pump works at higher flows).
Air bubbles or foaming of the oil I would only expect at higher revs, not just idling.
Anybody any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Rik


Last edited by RacesconaB204 on Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:18 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:42 am 
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Welcome! :)

Do you know how many miles/kilometres the engine has done from new?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:51 am 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
Only 110.000 km's. All external parts (like flywheel clutch seem to confirm that too). Cilinder bores look very nice..


Last edited by RacesconaB204 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:36 am 
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Location: Porto - Portugal
RacesconaB204 wrote:
But there is a problem: Oil pressure
and I am starting to become a little desperate, because I just fiited a brand new crank, main bearings, rod end bearings and it almost looks as the problem is still there.
When I start the engine. Oil pressure started at about almost 4 bars idling (looks OK by then).
I just let it run idling at approx 1.000rpm and as the engine temperature increased pressure dropped to 3-, 2.5-, 2-, 1.5-, 1.4bar in about 20 minutes. Just idling.
Pressure relieve valve looks OK / sits closed. I checked the o-ring that is around the oil tube and the bore in my special adapter where usually the oil filter is mounted. This was also OK. Bore 19.0mm, tube 14.0mm, o-ring 13x3mm. Mounting grease still there. Absolutely no leakage there as well.
I can only think of the oil pump yet, but I can not confirm this by knowledge, sizes or tolerances, so?
If there was something wrong with the sump or suction tube, then it makes no sense that it gets worse when temperature increases as the oil gets thinner and resistance becomes less. Also at higher revs there is pressure (pump works at higher flows).
Air bubles or foaming of the oil I would only expect at higher revs, not just idling.
Anybody any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Rik


Hi RacesconaB204,
Nice config you have! You virtually have a piece of all top branded cars in yours. And you were able to joint it all together in one chassis! 8)

About the oil pressure, it seems normal to me. I have an oil pressure gauge in my car, and it behaves exactly the same. Starts with 4bar (cold start) and then drops to near your pressure. The saab specs about oil pressure are: 2.7bar at 2000rpm with 10w40 oil at about 80ºc. I´m guessing that you´re not using a mineral 10w40 oil, are you?
So, its normal that the oil pressure drops a little more with late/recent synt oil, because of oil thickness.
If your engine gives you the numbers that I mentioned above (2.7 bar at 2000rpm), then you´ll be ok. Remember also that this is a turbo engine, usually turbo engines tend to have less oil pressure than the N/A engines.

Cheers
Carlos


Last edited by catavr on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:44 am 
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Lets see some more pictures of how you have done it then!!
In particular the gearbox and sump looks a nice neat job


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:52 am 
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Location: suffolk
Car Models: 1993 9000 2.0 cse
nice job youve done there
my second car was a gold 2 door ascona
quickly painted it white and put manta 400 type paintjob on it
with twin caprii headlights and cut the vents in the bonnet oh to be 18 again

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:13 am 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
catavr wrote:
The saab specs about oil pressure are: 2.7bar at 2000rpm with 10w40 oil at about 80ºc. I´m guessing that you´re not using a mineral 10w40 oil, are you?
So, its normal that the oil pressure drops a little more with late/recent synt oil, because of oil thickness.
If your engine gives you the numbers that I mentioned above (2.7 bar at 2000rpm), then you´ll be ok.
Carlos


Next Thursday I 'll have a brand new oil pump & cover as well. Once mounted I'll check what pressure we have at 2.000rpm.

With the 'old crank' and bearings the oil pressure dropped so far on the race track that once back in the pit lane (idling) you could hear the hydraulic cam lifters knock and the oil pressure warning light did illuminate sometimes.

I was afraid that it would still be the same now with the new crank etc. (but I still did not drive it yet).


Last edited by RacesconaB204 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:31 am 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
I'm afraid that there is also a misunderstanding in how to determine the condition of the oil pump looking into my Haynes Manual for 900NG. This is how .... (?) according to the Haynes manual. Usually the tolerance on the axial clearance between the gears and the housing is stated; not the clearance on the outside of the ring. The local Saab-dealer here in Germany also refers to axial clearance.

Image

Image

According to the Haynes Manual my oil pump is way out tolerance because I can easily put a 0.15mm gauge in between, however if I check it in axial direction only a 0.05mm gauge fits (should be 0.03-0.08mm). So then it would be OK.

Outside ring of mine is 103.9 and thickness of the gears is 10.98-10.99mm


Image

Image

Image

Image

So yes, I will exchange the oil pump gears and cover, but without any actual knowledge that the 'old' one is out of tolerance.
Just to make sure that this last part is not the problem (if there still is a problem).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:44 am 
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Car Models: 1981 99 Turbo & 1979 C900 GLS + Jaguar XF 250 S/brake & FIAT 500 TwinAir
Welcome, I like the look of the Ascona 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Location: Porto - Portugal
RacesconaB204 wrote:
Next Thursday I 'll have a brand new oil pump & cover as well. Once mounted I'll check what pressure we have at 2.000rpm.

With the 'old crank' and bearings the oil pressure dropped so far on the race track that once back in the pit lane (idling) you could hear the hydrailic cam lifters knock and the oil pressure warning light did illuminate sometimes.

I was afraid that it would still be the same now with the new crank etc. (but I still did not drive it yet).


Judging from your pics, your oil pump is a little scored and not on a very good shape. That could be the main cause of the oil pressure drop.
You should also check these:
- The relief valve spring and plunger (small aluminium piston). Check for marks and wear. This part is not expensive, change it if you have the chance.
- Oil cooler and thermostat. Apply some kind of oil temp sensor and gauge. The oil thermostat should open around 70ºc (max open at 80ºc). But the oil cooler should be able to dissipate the eat without dropping the oil pressure (... or not too much!)

If the oil pressure dropped to the point of lightening the warning light, You should RE-check the crank bearings and crankshaft for marks... before its too late!

Cheers
Carlos


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
Relieve valve is OK. valve seats are not damaged and it does not get stuck in an opened position.

There was no place for the common Saab oil filter-adapter/thermostat because of the precense of the cross member and steering rank just there. Therefore I made an adapter plate (with 1/2" oil-out & oil-in connection), using an external Mocal oil filter adapter. At first also using a sandwich plate with oil-thermostat, but because of the oil-pressure problem I already removed that.

So now the oil gets out of the engine by this adapter plate through 1/2" Mocal hoses directly into the oil cooler and from the oil cooler into the external oil filter and then back into the engine.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Last edited by RacesconaB204 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
The sump...

Image

Image

Image

.....at higher rev's no oil pressure problem. 'Just' at idle when the engine/oil is hot.

For those who doubt...the connection from the suction tube to the pump has no leakage

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
Some general pictures of the engine when I took it out.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:06 pm 
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You'll get much better coverage of/response to the oil pressure problem if you post it in the workshop.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:32 pm 
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RacesconaB204 wrote:

Image



Isn´t this oil pick up tube waaaaay too long??
This could explain the fact that you´re loosing oil pressure only at idle. The engine revs, at idle, could be not enough to create the necessary oil vacuum and desire pressure.

Also, I think you shouldn´t be using that kind of sealant and not too much as shown in the pic. This is a good way to wreck down an engine as a result of blocked oil passages.
You should use Loctite 518 or 510 anaerobic sealant.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Have you consider the dry sump route? :roll:
There are some good examples, from uksaabers, in this forum.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:50 pm 
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RacesconaB204 wrote:
Some general pictures of the engine when I took it out.

Image


NICE looking car.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
catavr wrote:
Isn´t this oil pick up tube waaaaay too long??
This could explain the fact that you´re loosing oil pressure only at idle. The engine revs, at idle, could be not enough to create the necessary oil vacuum and desire pressure.

Also, I think you shouldn´t be using that kind of sealant and not too much as shown in the pic. This is a good way to wreck down an engine as a result of blocked oil passages.
You should use Loctite 518 or 510 anaerobic sealant.


Have you ever seen a oil pick-up tube of a Manta 1.8S. Same type of pump, about the same length of tube but only 1/2" in diameter....and then again at higher rev's (higher flows) there are no problems, neither when the oil is 'cold'. You would defenitely expect more problems with thicker/colder oil in that case. The opposite is a fact.

If you try to seal a non-machined surface this is certainly the type of sealant to use. The excesive sealant on the inside of the suction tube can easily be removed when the pump gears are not in (as I did and is visible on the picture too).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:49 pm 
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What diameter is the pick up tube ?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Car Models: Ascona-B with B204 1st gen
froggy wrote:
What diameter is the pick up tube ?

Inside 17.4 mm; once inside the sump it is the original pick up tube of the B204L of a 900NG


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