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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:23 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Sorry, realise that this is a long debated topic, but would appreciate an opinion.
Engine started to smoke slightly 1 year after purchase on approx 115k in March 2017, had been regularly serviced by Saab indie. Took to other local indie to me for diagnosis and other issues, diagnosis being turbo and definitely not valves as this was the updated head. Smoke had all but disappeared with the warmer weather already (did not realise that this was a factor), smoke returned when weather got colder.
Checked PCV myself as far as possible and replaced all small bore pipes, but carried on smoking. Eventually tried slightly thicker oil Mobil 1 10/60 as suggested on Saab forums etc, which appeared to reduce smoke slightly but it carried on getting worse.
Took to original Saab indie who serviced vehicle with previous owner, their diagnosis was valve seals probably but inconclusive, checked turbo for bypass which apparently was ok (since found that they forgot to tighten bottom clamp ring !). Told that tech 2 would not reveal anything and that compression test would not either, did not offer leak down test or suggest it. They wanted to remove head, replace timing chain etc etc and drop sump, good advice but great if you have those funds !
Smoke getting worse now, quite embarrassing in fact but only on cold start, hot emissions are spot on.
Just lately noticed oil leakage, yes now check valve was sticking so have replaced and resealed rocker cover.
Checked compressions with untrusted kit, 12.5, 12.5, 12.0, 12.5, so values possibly down but has now 145k, tried oiling one cylinder but this did not seem to increase value hardly so points to valves possibly. Tried the glove test on oil addition pipe, inflates when engine started and also when throttle tweaked which still points to a PCV system issue ?
Questions are:
1. Is glove test reliable on a turbo system
2. If cylinder compression is down, would extra blow bye overwhelm breathing system causing glove inflation.
3. What else could cause breathing issue, restrictors have not been changed but seem to work with the lips on pipe suck blow technique and subsequent mouthful of oil vapour !
Opinion appreciated, may end up removing head myself although don't fancy it to be honest.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:25 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 2 x 9-5's & a Jaaag
Sounds similar to what I had on my 2005 model year, however with that the compression test results wereDry:
15/14/12/14 Bar when dry, added a small amount of oil to each cylinder in turn and re-tested to give "wet" readings which were 17/14/17/16 Bar.

As you can see, no. 3 was significantly lower on the dry test ... turns out I had valve guide wear, leading to oil getting into that cylinder and gumming up one of its' oil control rings.

Suffice to say, it was not a cheap fix- but I had them do other stuff too (it started out as getting them to replace the timing and balance chains). However, oil usage after the work dropped to near zero.

In your case, the compression test results look good ... so I'd be looking at other possible causes like the turbo, PCV and evap pipework (failing non-return valves in the evap pipework aren't unheard of). Does the car use oil? Does the smoke stop when the car is warmed up? Do you do predominantly short journeys?

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'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:22 pm 
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Location: Sandbach, Cheshire
Car Models: 99L,9000,9-5, Rovers & Imp
In my experience I would say the turbo oil seal could be leaking into the exhaust. Do you know when or if the Turbo has been replaced, typically the early ones lasted to 80k miles and with the later cars they lasted a little longer, think my current 9-5 went about 125k miles.

I know that if you have the turbo off you can feel play at the blades, not sure how or if that check can be done on the car ?

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Sandbach, Cheshire
1973 99 2.0L
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:29 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Turbo was replaced for new "genuine Saab" when diagnosed seemingly in error in June 2017, same "specialist" also did some other work including changing rear shocks as they were then on an advisory, shocks were placed back on advisory at next MOT as leaking. Shocks fitted were a Delphi "comfort" which does not seem to be appropriate for a sports suspension in my opinion although I am no expert. Have "cheated" through a couple of MOT`s since and have a pair of Bilsteins from Neo Bro`s waiting to fit but want to check out rear first as looks as if sagging, tyres cambered out at bottom.
Turbo was checked by second "specialist" last year and they reported it as ok, but then I found that they had left the bottom clamp undone. Found this only as I removed top left lifting eye to give better room to replace rocker cover. So unfortunately have no confidence in specialists presently.
Compression tests were via a gifted old engine tune set, appearance of tools was to give workshop quality impression, quality of tools was anything but. Flex pipe to plug would only screw in approx. 3 turns so perhaps not sealing correctly, gauge is not calibrated and would not return correctly to zero, so I do doubt values but is now an older engine.
I have had a camera in pots, but not able to distinguish clearly any oil drop from valves after overnight, there is obviously evidence of carbonisation but across entire piston head on each cylinder. There is evidence of soot on plugs, also evidence of wet oil especially on cylinder 3, had hoped it was oil leaking from rocker cover due to PCV shut off valve but this is unlikely as plug ports are crowned.
Still have question of inflating glove on oil filler.
Is it valve stems/guides, piston rings, PCV system or all three ?
Does not seem to be any interested diagnostic mechanics these days, just want to change this or change that with no evidence.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:06 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 2 x 9-5's & a Jaaag
The 2.3T engine in the turbo edition was essentially an Aero engine (I've got the same age car with the same engine), as such it used the Mitsubishi TD04 turbo which lasts much longer than the Garrett ones used in the 2.0t/2.3t. Check the bushes on the rear end (trailing arm and rose bushes) as they may well be worn too.
In respect of the compression gauge tests, what you're looking for is a large difference between the cylinders more than absolute values - so I doubt you've got the same problem I had. Although the specialist I used said that the valve guide wear was still an issue on my age of engine (turns out they were very much correct), although some engines suffer more than others.
As I understand it, a leakdown test (circa £20-30 for a leakdown test kit, provided you have a compressor available) should help to identify where any leak is coming from. Soot on plugs could be caused by it running rich if you're doing a lot of short journeys (hence that question).
But don't ignore JohnKeane's suggestion above of checking the turbo - the easiest route is to remove the "cobra" pipe and check there, this allows you to check for play in the shaft. Also remove the pipe that goes into/from the intercooler (from is easier due to better access!) and check for signs of oil there - which would also confirm the possibility of turbo seal wear if there's a lot. If this is the case, it's not a big issue - with the appropriate tools you can either strip the turbo, replace the seals etc, have it professionally balanced then re-fit to the car - or do what I (and others) have done which is to replace just the centre part (also known as the core or CHRA - Central Hub Rotating Assembly) of the turbo for a new one and fit this to your existing compressor and exhaust housings - effectively giving you a new turbo for a fraction of the cost.
What you need is someone who knows what they're doing - ideally a Saab specialist, but they're getting harder to find nowadays ... where are you located?

_________________
'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:59 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Thanks for interest sounds.
As said turbo was exchanged from new by first Saab specialist in 2017 so has now done approx. 30k, second Saab specialist removed intake pipe last year to check for spindle wear and oil and informed me that all was ok and turbo not the problem.
Can`t guarantee compression test values but all were close to each other so that's a plus. Had rocker cover off due to oil leakage (probably not the only place) due to bad PCV check valve that snuck up on me, at least top end looked pretty good, no apparent sludge, cam sprockets looked good, timing chain had maybe 2mm in centre of sprockets, cams and lifters looked good but cannot tell if cams worn as will wear across whole surface.
Sorry did not answer previous question regarding journeys. Car originally had an easy life up and down M40 with original owners from new who appeared quite academic and my age (60) so no boy racing. With me, car has short journeys to work (15mins) or golf club (20 mins - if only presently), I will open it up on the odd short, straight, bit of road occasionally to blow out cobwebs, but I`m no boy racer either, so car tends to have me and my golf kit as load 99% of time. Oil originally changed by Saab independents every 20k as per service book, I`ve been changing every 8 k.
Unfortunately a lot of possible expense is all occurring at once, engine being the main issue, just done 4 of 6 front sub frame bushes with poly (bit scary standing under a 2 post lift first time) and was not as straight forward as You Tube vids but I may post experience for others. Also pending, 4 tyres partly due to suspension issues (did run General Altimax Sport which lasted 20k, better than Kumho 12k !), other possible suspension issues, rear shocks and possibly springs, exhaust on second advisory for Cat back, engine oil leaks (to be further investigated), auto trans fluid needs changing (bit confusing as to which fluid but head around it now), brakes need looking at as squealing (local mechanic changed front pads and discs, but needed 3 goes to get right size ?).
So all in got a bit to sort. Have done a few heads in my time, but not for 30 years now, and no longer have an indoor space or all the tools / equipment. Was quoted £1k > £2.5k to do head by Saab guys, local mechanic said he would exchange head for £500 but wanted me to get spare head and have it refurbished first as he did not want the potential parts hassle. There is a rebuild firm in Bracknell, which is close to me, they want £400 labour + parts for head or £5000 for engine rebuild (engine or head removed and transported to them).
So unfortunately been unlucky with mechanics, so will opt to do myself as much as possible now, unfortunately I take people at face value and that's no good these days.
Sorry, rambling now !!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:25 pm 
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Car Models: 9k, 2 x 9-5's & a Jaaag
I had mine done by a fairly local specialist in Kent (Motorvation Saab), not a cheap fix but they know their stuff and it did fix my issue. However, before going down that route I'd already checked all the PCV and evap pipework, turbo etc etc so the engine itself was the last thing remaining ... turned out that was where the problem lay. But the head work on mine (which they outsourced to an engineering firm) was - if I remember right - £700 + VAT (which included changing the valve guides), so not a cheap option. Although I can safely say that the entire job of removing the engine, replacing the timing and balance chains and associated paraphernalia, clutch & slave cylinder, water pump, main & big end bearings etc and then refitting it was less than the place in Bracknell quoted you for the engine rebuild alone.

Short journeys won't help as the engine might not get fully up to temperature to burn off any oil/water vapour mix, although it can be difficult to do those at the moment!

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'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:12 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Cheers for the input. Guess I need to get organised and methodical, and formulate a plan:
1. Double check PCV system and ensure ok. Have read loads of threads and watched You Tubers, opinion can be diverse but think now on top of it.
2. If PCV all ok (there are no codes pending so ECU thinks mostly ok), then either buy reputable kit to self test or pay for compression and leak down that may indicate root cause.
3. Decide what to do and possibly with who. Might be easier to get complete swapped out, but what is available and who to put trust in, there are plenty of horror stories. Could end up spending way beyond car worth, will heart overcome head ?
Did get recommended a garage in Wokingham by a Saab guy in Sainsbury's car park, and my neighbour /friend also swear by the same outfit, so could be a backstop, not cheap but reliable, straight and effective.
Still, loads to get done in meantime, just hope engine does not make its own mind up first.
Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:42 pm 
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Car Models: 9k, 2 x 9-5's & a Jaaag
Don't forget the evap pipework as well, the non-return valve(s) in those are also known to fail. Regarding your last point, I went through a similar decision with mine and sourced a second-hand head to try and save money, however it turns out that also had valve guide wear - just not as much as mine. So it ended up cheaper getting mine refurbished and turned into a "known good". Although I could have paid a bit more again and got a new (old stock) head, but I decided that wasn't really necessary. There is a "known good garages" thread on here which might give you some other options. Either way, good luck - hope you get it sorted :-)

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'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:50 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Further to previous: not yet found any professional who offers a leak down test, so will probably end up doing so myself. Have completed another compression test with better quality equipment (not calibrated by me) engine at operating temperature dry, and then wet with tablespoon of oil:
205 psi - 195 - 195 - 194 dry. / 210psi - 198 - 200 - 195 wet so not bad for a B235 with 145 k, new apparently should be 203 psi / 14 bar, unhealthy approx 175psi.
Under forum advice have changed route to work so can now blow out cob webs instead of sedate 30>40 mph, seems to be smoking less on cold starts now but plugs all with evidence of oil so possibly valve guide/seals although still not 100% convinced of breathing system according to latex glove test. Maybe just hopeful of owning a never ending engine ?
Fitted new B4 struts and springs on rear, but this has not effected camber or chassis height, so may well be bush related although can't feel anything.
Fitted new powerflex torque control bush (square), really reduced vibration and engine noise.
Fitted new front pads (pagid) no squealing as yet - hooray.
Flushed through Auto with 8l of Manoil JWS3309 (cheap on eBay), old was black, so still another 4l flush to do. Auto seems better/quieter although shift still notchy.
Looked at wheel arches when doing struts etc, although did not take liners off. There is enough evidence to suggest a proper inspection is required, but will leave this till it warms up, and will probably also remove will covers.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:01 pm 
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Car Models: 9k, 2 x 9-5's & a Jaaag
With those compression test results, I'd say you probably don't have the same problem I had - which is a good thing.

Have you checked the non-return valve(s) in the evap pipework yet?

_________________
'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:40 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Hi Sounds, I changed all small bore pipes with silicone previously. The other hard 12 & 10 mm pipes I have only checked by sucking/blowing, and I believe that these pipes contain a restriction valve to control flow, which obviously cannot be checked for rate of flow like this. Is there an "easy" way to remove quick fit connectors on oil separator, ended up splitting the separator/one way valve/throttle body hard pipe when replacing check valve as could not release pipe at oil separator. Scared to use force as separator may now be brittle, and cannot be reached from underneath without removing exhaust unless one has 6 foot arms. Have fitted a 12 mm festo elbow prior to check valve which will make this easy to exchange in future if needed. Chickened out of removing hard pipe from separator to turbo downpipe for same reason, but restriction one way seems to work with sucking/blowing.
Am I correct that other valves are restriction rather than check/one way. If not then I'll find some way to replace them, but not found any valves without pipe for sale. Can possibly replace valve only by using hot air gun to soften pipe ?
As said, have approached 1 or 2 local mechanics, reaction seemed to be "oh, it's a Saab !", I'd get rid of that if I were you, can't really help you as won't get parts now. Happy to do simple servicing though. Old style diagnostics seems to be a thing of the past. Perhaps I'm Victor Meldrew reborn !


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:10 pm 
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The fittings on the oil separator are a pig ... AFAIK the only flow restrictor is on the pipe which runs along the cam cover, all others are non-return valves. Going from memory, the evap pipework on yours runs from the throttle body via a non-return valve near the power steering reservoir to the evap purge solenoid which is near the MAF sensor. Earlier cars had another leg which ran from the purge solenoid and joined into the APC "R" line (which ultimately connects to the "cobra" pipe), but I'm pretty sure that was deleted around 2004-2005.

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'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:29 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Presumably my pipework is the same as your 2010.
Hard pipe with flow restrictor from oil separator - across left upper engine mount - directly to push fit on turbo inlet.

The valve behind rocker cover from separator to throttle body is definitely one way towards throttle body.
Thought all other "valves" were flow restrictors, but might be wrong. Is not easy to get accurate information, Haynes manual has no info as not part of serviceable components ???


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:00 pm 
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Going from memory, the evap pipe runs from throttle body to behind the power steering reservoir - where it turns to run parallel to the inner wing. There's a blue non-return valve just the other side of the PS reservoir, then another run of pipe which connects to the evap purge solenoid that is located close to the MAF sensor. It does not connect to the turbo inlet ... well, not on the 2004/5 onwards ones, anyway.

If you do decide to replace the evap pipework, make sure you use fuel hose not silicone.

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'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:07 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Thanks for the info, will check tomorrow after work as will still be light. Will trace what goes from where to where with what in between.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:43 am 
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Location: Crewe, Cheshire
Car Models: 2002 Saab 9-5 Aero Estate
Your rear wheel camber problem is most certainly rose bushes and possibly trailing arm bushes, my advice would be to remove the trailing arms complete with rose bushes and change them out off the car. The trailing arm bushes are a PITA to remove and fit, I believe I had to cut and burn the old ones out and 'carefully' hammer the new ones in and I don't recommend that to you, I would ask a friendly garage to press them out and in for you. The rose bushes can also be a PITA, you need a bush removal tool and some patience, lots of WD40 or similar, and a tap with a hammer on the stub axle periodically as you try to remove them (you will probably break your bush removal tool if you don't). Make sure you buy genuine GM bushes, the cheap alternatives don't last long, I got some genuine GM ones for £15 each from Ebay.

I just remembered, getting the trailing arms off can involve breaking into the brake pipes which are frequently rust-welded together at the union of the flexi on the trailing arm, to the hard pipe on the car. I am fairly sure you can remove the trailing arm without opening the connection but I don't remember how I did it now (but definitely did do it that way as it is more than 2 years since I changed the bushes out in 2018 and I only recently replaced all of that rust and corruption. Best option is probably to allow for worst case scenario of having to cut the hard pipe and put in a new union a few inches back to join up with new flexi pipes. You may get lucky with it being a newer car - I hope so for your sake.

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MY02 9-5 Aero Est
MY01 9-5 2.0L LPT
MY98 9-5 SE 2.3 LPT
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:00 am 
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I undid the brackets etc and suspended the caliper from the lower suspension mounting point using a strap - so it was never actually disconnected. I've got a pic somewhere ...

_________________
'98 9000 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR
'10 9-5 2.3T Turbo Edition


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:05 pm 
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sounds wrote:
I undid the brackets etc and suspended the caliper from the lower suspension mounting point using a strap - so it was never actually disconnected. I've got a pic somewhere ...


Yeah, that's how I did mine the first time, pig of a job either way really, it was actually much easier cutting off the old hard pipe at the HP/Flexi joint and renewing everything that fits inside the trailing arm using some of the Hel flexi hoses I got from Saabits. I bought some pipe flaring tools for the job in 2018 and used them on the 9000 and on the 9-5, well worth the initial outlay IMHO and great for the resulting peace of mind.

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MY02 9-5 Aero Est
MY01 9-5 2.0L LPT
MY98 9-5 SE 2.3 LPT
MY97 Merc SL500 (oops)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:41 pm 
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Car Models: 2010 2.3T Turbo Edition Est.
Hi guys, cheers for info regarding camber, luckily I live on a working farm and have access to a 2 post lift and a hydraulic press, but don't want to outstay my welcome if you know what I mean.
Regarding PCV/evap system, I may need some clarity.
Pipes that I am referring to are hard/ formed ones, 4 in number:
1. Dia 12 from oil trap to turbo downpipe with a valve/filter that is grey and white and make Mann Hummel 3911171942 (Saab 5261412). Cannot find any info on either number so not clear on its function but can be blown through both directions.
2. Dia 12 from oil trap to rocker box cover (new) with no valve.
3. Dia 12 from oil trap to 1 way (new metal heavy duty) valve then to throttle body via rubber hose.
4. Dia 8 from brake servo, feed to inlet manifold with black valve, carries on to pump on end of cylinder head also with in black line valve.
So not sure of functions of these 3 valves, do not know if flow restrictor or one way, or some kind of inline filter. They tend to be included with pipes as heat shrink into pipe ends. Cannot make out numbers on the black valves.
Believe these are all PCV system.
There are further rubber pipes that run from 3 way connector on turbo downpipe, are these the evap system or part of turbo boost ?
Any knowledgeable input appreciated.


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