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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:32 am 
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beinghuman wrote:
ghost_walker wrote:
I thought the whole point of a bollard was to protect something, either by slowing something down or providing a visual warning?

That bollard does neither.

Dunno about that. It certainly seems to have slowed down that BMW! I really don't understand all the various comments about whether or not a driver is able to see the bollards. It's quite simple - DO NOT DRIVE ON THE PAVEMENT. This would reduce your chances of colliding with bollards or any other street furniture, whether marked or unmarked, to ZERO.

Great advice but, have you watched an articulated truck recently, in some spaces manoeuvring without putting one, or more, wheels on the pavement is nigh on impossible. The same applies, to a much lesser extent, with any longish vehicle where there is a need to turn wide to avoid clipping the kerb, a difficult manoeuvre in a confined space. Not that that is what happened to the BMW, or indeed anyone who hit the bollard with the front of their car.

Looking at the A10 on Apple Maps I can see the corners and bollards and none of them look to be too confined for a normal length car to negotiate. The radii of the corners look to be generous too, which is often the reason cars run over kerbs. I know of a residential road in Sussex where cars are expected to change direction instantly, a 30 degree left bend with almost no radius on the kerb.

Whilst I agree that the simple expedient of not driving on the pavement is effective I am forced to conclude that the bollards are designed to cause damage to any vehicle that does transgress. The question thus has to be why? A damaged vehicle becomes an obstruction and its removal an even greater inconvenience to all concerned. As far as I can see these bell shaped bollards are decorative more than deterrent.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:03 am 
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They're designed to not be damaged if a vehicle hits them, as opposed to a conventional bollard which usually has to be reset in fresh concrete or replaced entirely, after only a small impact.

The achieve this by being wide and low at the base, and very heavy. You can't knock it over.


It's much quicker to remove a damaged vehicle than it is to cordon off a road, or 2 roads if it's a junction to allow a damaged bollard to be removed and replaced.
Sometimes they have to close the road twice, once for removal immediately after because it's unsafe, and again to fit the new one.

And if the vehicle is damaged from hitting a bollard its at the expense of the driver who hit it, rather than at the expense of the bollard owner (usually the council) if the driver is able to drive off without leaving details.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:53 am 
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There is literally nothing stronger in the entire world than a bollard.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1462772176453607424


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:35 pm 
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beinghuman wrote:
There is literally nothing stronger in the entire world than a bollard.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1462772176453607424


It's done a number on the lorry for sure, but what condition is the bollard in afterwards? And how deep down does it have to be buried to achieve that?

It could be like an iceberg with only 10% of the height showing!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:15 pm 
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there is a similar one floating about. a bit older i think and it is basically an anti terror bollard. design to be put in place in front of certain buildings like houses of paraliment etc.

from memory it is a solid steel and buried a good bit down in concrete.

the vid i saw, not the linked one was longer and the bollard was not damaged beyond needing a coat of paint.

the truck was scrap. and anyone in the cab was either dead from injuries or soon to be.

was certainly a good way to stop a truck loaded with things that go bang in a big way

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:18 pm 
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found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP6SKDppwes

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:11 am 
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GeoffR wrote:
beardydave wrote:
They're not using the road though. They are cutting the corner on the pavement.

I don’t think we have enough information to be sure exactly what they were doing but three incidents in a few days raises questions as to why, and whether the road layout could be improved. ..


Or, does it raise the question (I personally think it does) that the decline over recent years in courtesy and general driving standards accompanied by the tendency of people to blame others for their own failings needs to be addressed?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:50 am 
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My-Best-Ever-Car wrote:
GeoffR wrote:
beardydave wrote:
They're not using the road though. They are cutting the corner on the pavement.

I don’t think we have enough information to be sure exactly what they were doing but three incidents in a few days raises questions as to why, and whether the road layout could be improved. ..


Or, does it raise the question (I personally think it does) that the decline over recent years in courtesy and general driving standards accompanied by the tendency of people to blame others for their own failings needs to be addressed?

Steve.

By asking “why” we open the possibility of finding just that cause but to prejudge the cause without some level of investigation risks missing something else.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:42 am 
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Let me give you an idea of what happened and why.
Looking at the A10 on Apple Maps it is obvious that at some junctions with the A10 the side roads have been narrowed, presumably to allow the driver of a vehicle joining the A10 to have maximum visibility.

It looks as though the council have raised the road at the narrowest point to allow level access for pedestrians and mobility vehicles crossing the junction.

There is a queue of vehicles waiting to join the A10.

The BMW driver, wanting to turn left, is waiting for the vehicle in front to turn right. BMW driver now finds that the road and footpath (I am with the USA here the road is paved too so it is all pavement) are at the same level with only two red lines to differentiate one from the other. BMW driver decides to pull to the left of the vehicle turning right and finds the bollard.

We have therefore a number of causal factors:
A narrow access to the A10
An impatient BMW driver
A raised crossing
A poorly differentiated road/footpath transition

To my way of thinking, the narrowed junction is good as it prevents vehicles from obstructing each other's view, but to reinforce the intention requires a kerb to discourage the very manoeuvre the BMW driver was attempting. Red paint is not sufficient especially when the "kerb" can't actually be seen from the driving seat of an SUV.

The raised crossing, of itself, is not a bad idea either but in combination with the narrowed junction presents the wrong message to anyone wanting to turn left.

The BMW driver is, despite his/her impatience, only doing what would be normal in other circumstances.

My conclusion is that, whilst the BMW driver should not have attempted the manoeuvre the road layout did nothing to dissuade him/her from attempting to do so, the bollard didn't have that effect because it wasn't seen (we'll not go into why).

This is all conjecture because I don't know that any of this is correct but the intention is to show that blaming the driver for everything may not be appropriate. It is however the modern way, the driver is guilty until proven innocent, "by the way there is no acceptable defence for that, so you must be guilty".

beardydave wrote:
They're designed to not be damaged if a vehicle hits them, as opposed to a conventional bollard which usually has to be reset in fresh concrete or replaced entirely, after only a small impact.

The achieve this by being wide and low at the base, and very heavy. You can't knock it over.

I have to ask this, if you expect a bollard to be hit by vehicles, is a bollard the right thing to use in that situation? I suggest not. Councils should be designing roads such that collisions with road furniture are prevented. Using a device that pretty much guarantees that any vehicle hitting it will be severely damaged seems to me to be the wrong approach.

It is my opinion that many a road "improvement" project actually has the exactly opposite effect. What we need to do is, as far as possible, to separate vehicles from pedestrians but that is another discussion.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:54 pm 
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GeoffR wrote:

...An impatient BMW driver...



Well, there has to be a first time for everything! :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:44 pm 
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GeoffR wrote:
I suspect the number of incidents would fall dramatically if they were tall enough to be seen from the driving seat at close range. I blame the person who specified a low bollard, which does not absolve the drivers but it is much easier to avoid something you can see.


"Your honour, the blame lies squarely with unconscious man led in the road, if he had been standing up my client would never have run him over, the case for the defence rests"

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:55 pm 
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Gaz38 wrote:
GeoffR wrote:
I suspect the number of incidents would fall dramatically if they were tall enough to be seen from the driving seat at close range. I blame the person who specified a low bollard, which does not absolve the drivers but it is much easier to avoid something you can see.


"Your honour, the blame lies squarely with unconscious man led in the road, if he had been standing up my client would never have run him over, the case for the defence rests"

You have missed the point.

Bollards are normally intended to indicate the presence of a hazard rather than being a hazard all by themselves.

In my opinion these bell shaped bollards serve no other purpose than to damage vehicles surely that isn’t appropriate. At least not generally, to protect an area from incursion by a car bomber they are ideal, to prevent someone from cutting a corner, over kill.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:15 pm 
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This quote from the manufacturer of bell bollards tells us their real purpose:

..."The unique shape is designed to deflect the wheels of heavy vehicles protecting pedestrians, people and buildings in busy public realm environments."

Steve.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:54 am 
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My-Best-Ever-Car wrote:
This quote from the manufacturer of bell bollards tells us their real purpose:

..."The unique shape is designed to deflect the wheels of heavy vehicles protecting pedestrians, people and buildings in busy public realm environments."

Steve.

Your quote puts these things in perspective "heavy vehicles" what are they designed to do to passenger cars etc? These things are 18"/0.5m high car wheels are between 12" and 20" in diameter, add a tyre and they might be 25" total, these bollards aren't going to do anything to the wheels of smaller vehicles because they will have destroyed the bodywork first.

I completely understand the need to keep heavy vehicles out of pedestrian space but such things have to be used with sensitivity as to the vehicles that use the roads on which they are installed. In the North London A10 case, designing the junctions to allow heavy vehicles to negotiate the corner without running over the footpath might be more appropriate. Yesterday I watched as a bus tried to turn left off the A404 around a corner with an inadequate radius. When traffic is light buses normally swing across both lanes of the smaller road but when there is traffic queueing to turn right that isn't possible. Put one of these bollards on the corner and it would require both lanes of the A404 to turn a bus (for bus read large vehicle). Design the junction to accommodate the vehicles that use the roads and there would be little need for these things.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:11 am 
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They aren't designed to do anything to passenger cars.
Passenger cars aren't supposed to be cutting the curb and are a lot less likely to due to their typically shorter length.


Ultimately, if you can't stay on the road, get off the road.
If you can't see where the road and pavement start and end due to similar paving, poor lighting etc, go extra slowly to give yourself time to react if you've made a mistake. The responsibility to not hit stationary objects lies wholly with the driver of the moving vehicle.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:18 am 
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beardydave wrote:
They aren't designed to do anything to passenger cars.
Passenger cars aren't supposed to be cutting the curb and are a lot less likely to due to their typically shorter length.


Ultimately, if you can't stay on the road, get off the road.
If you can't see where the road and pavement start and end due to similar paving, poor lighting etc, go extra slowly to give yourself time to react if you've made a mistake. The responsibility to not hit stationary objects lies wholly with the driver of the moving vehicle.



Absolutely agree 100%.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:42 am 
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but it is also the responsibility of the road designers to make it obvious what is road and what is pavement. so the blame comes back to the roads people for making it difficult.

picking similar colour paving is asking for trouble. especially in low light, bad weather conditions.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:51 am 
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ghost_walker wrote:
...but it is also the responsibility of the road designers to make it obvious what is road and what is pavement.


Like they do in the increasingly popular Shared Space Model? :?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:57 pm 
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yup, exactly. it was deemed illegal in england and my home town the father of the kid killed is fighting to have it deemed illegal here.

i said in page 1 i think about them.

how do you teach road safety to a child if there is not a distinction between road and pavement? and if your eye sight is poor to the point your registered blind, your well screwed really

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:01 pm 
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found a vid, thats before it was all complete, and some changes were made. tell me thats a safe thing to have?

but changes were minimal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4nDJLNNbA

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