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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:27 am 
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Tomgc61 wrote:
Yes I guess nobody is obliged to point out to customers that they don't have to pay the VAT

Certainly in the UK we are, and I'm sure that is the case in EU countries. In the UK it is strictly forbidden to collect VAT when it is not due. If I advertise something at £12 inc. VAT and an American or German comes along to buy it, I cannot include the VAT in the price. I am collecting the VAT on behalf of HMRC and if it is not due I must not collect it.
However, we went to some lengths towards the end of December to avoid the situation where someone in the EU might make a purchase when we had to charge them VAT but their order would not reach their border until after Brexit, leaving them also to pay their local VAT. We haven't entirely managed it and we will sort out those few customers who are still waiting for special-order Orio parts so they won't lose out.
I suspect in the case of the springs from Germany, that might be what happened.

Now we've passed the transition, EU sellers should not charge you their local VAT and for transactions below £135, should charge you UK VAT or, if they are not yet UK-VAT-registered, they should decline your order.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:33 am 
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puddlejumper wrote:
Strangely the export documents/charges ALSO apply to pallets going to Northern Ireland. :shock:

Northern Ireland remains in the single market in order to avoid re-introducing a hard border on the island, which is widely regarded to be a threat to the peace agreement. Therefore, the customs border between the UK and EU has been transferred from the island of Ireland to the Irish sea.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:40 am 
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What is to stop someone having a single fixed price, and pocketing the difference if VAT is not required?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:14 am 
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BillJ wrote:
.Now we've passed the transition, EU sellers should not charge you their local VAT and for transactions below £135, should charge you UK VAT or, if they are not yet UK-VAT-registered, they should decline your order.


What happens in the case of a non uk vat registered trader selling to the EU or for example a private individual selling on eBay who is obviously not going to be registered for trading with anybody.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:45 am 
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beardydave wrote:
What is to stop someone having a single fixed price, and pocketing the difference if VAT is not required?

It is a legal requirement to state explicitly whether or not the advertised price includes VAT. As long as you abide by that, there is no reason why a seller cannot charge different prices for different markets. However, they cannot say the price includes VAT and then charge that VAT-inclusive price to a customer who is not eligible to pay VAT.

Tomgc61 wrote:
What happens in the case of a non uk vat registered trader selling to the EU or for example a private individual selling on eBay who is obviously not going to be registered for trading with anybody.

The new law is actually largely targeted at exactly that situation, since much of the fraud it tackles is perpetrated through Ebay and other marketplaces. In that case, Ebay is deemed the seller and must collect the VAT. Then it is up to them how they work this out with the seller. The new law views the chain differently from before so that in principle, the seller sells the goods to Ebay, who then re-sell it to the end-buyer. It only appears to cover "online marketplaces", the law's definition of which includes companies' web-sites as well as the obvious Ebay, Amazon, etc. So if you were to make a private sale outside of that then you just follow the normal customs rules. Box it up, fill in the customs declaration and post it to the foreign buyer's address. The courier or postal operator will do all the customs clearance and collect the tax and duty from the recipient on behalf of their local government.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:07 am 
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BillJ wrote:
CitTone wrote:
From what I have seen, one of the complaints that exporters to the UK have is that they are now expected to register with HMRC to collect the VAT on their behalf.....

Indeed. However, despite being introduced at the same time as the UK/EU agreement, this is not a consequence of Brexit. It is a law that the EU will also introduce on 01/07/21 so UK and other non-EU sellers will need to register for EU VAT in order to sell goods to EU residents after this date, at least for orders below €150 (I think?).
It is to prevent VAT fraud by international sellers.

Does the EU version of this only count for goods coming into the EU from outside, or between EU countries too?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:34 pm 
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CitTone wrote:
BillJ wrote:
CitTone wrote:
From what I have seen, one of the complaints that exporters to the UK have is that they are now expected to register with HMRC to collect the VAT on their behalf.....

Indeed. However, despite being introduced at the same time as the UK/EU agreement, this is not a consequence of Brexit. It is a law that the EU will also introduce on 01/07/21 so UK and other non-EU sellers will need to register for EU VAT in order to sell goods to EU residents after this date, at least for orders below €150 (I think?).
It is to prevent VAT fraud by international sellers.

Does the EU version of this only count for goods coming into the EU from outside, or between EU countries too?

Only from outside the EU. Basically, a non-EU business will be able to register for VAT in one EU country, charge VAT for customers in all EU countries at their respective local rates, then submit the VAT collected via the country of registration. So it isn't necessary to register individually with each EU member state.

Within the EU, as far as I know a customer in, for example, France buying from a seller in Germany would still be charged German VAT as they currently are.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:37 pm 
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BillJ wrote:
CitTone wrote:
BillJ wrote:
Indeed. However, despite being introduced at the same time as the UK/EU agreement, this is not a consequence of Brexit. It is a law that the EU will also introduce on 01/07/21 so UK and other non-EU sellers will need to register for EU VAT in order to sell goods to EU residents after this date, at least for orders below €150 (I think?).

Does the EU version of this only count for goods coming into the EU from outside, or between EU countries too?

Only from outside the EU. Basically, a non-EU business will be able to register for VAT in one EU country, charge VAT for customers in all EU countries at their respective local rates, then submit the VAT collected via the country of registration. So it isn't necessary to register individually with each EU member state.

Within the EU, as far as I know a customer in, for example, France buying from a seller in Germany would still be charged German VAT as they currently are.


So the fact we (and EU sellers shipping to the UK) are having to mess about with it is a direct consequence of Brexit. Were it not for Brexit we (and EU sellers selling into the UK) could carry on as before, dealing with each other, unencumbered by additional registration requirements. Right?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:50 pm 
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I see ford fiesta and focus's have gone up in price dramatically this year.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:56 pm 
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Jules_ht wrote:
So the fact we (and EU sellers shipping to the UK) are having to mess about with it is a direct consequence of Brexit. Were it not for Brexit we (and EU sellers selling into the UK) could carry on as before, dealing with each other, unencumbered by additional registration requirements. Right?


From how I read it, yes. But, it is not a consequence of the Brexit Deal, rather a new policy brought aside of that, in which affects how deals are carried out between EU and Non EU states. If sellers follow the rules as per Bill's previous posts, sales between countries should be seamless and costs remain relatively unchanged. It's those that refuse to register that are going to cause you excess costs at the border? As I say, that's how I've read it?

Out of interest BillJ, how complicated was the process, assuming you have already completed it?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:33 am 
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Shalien wrote:
Jules_ht wrote:
So the fact we (and EU sellers shipping to the UK) are having to mess about with it is a direct consequence of Brexit. Were it not for Brexit we (and EU sellers selling into the UK) could carry on as before, dealing with each other, unencumbered by additional registration requirements. Right?


From how I read it, yes. But, it is not a consequence of the Brexit Deal, rather a new policy brought aside of that, in which affects how deals are carried out between EU and Non EU states.

Indeed, Shalien. Yes, you are correct, Jules, that if the UK had not left the EU then this new policy would not have affected our buying from EU sellers. However, it would still have affected our buying from non-EU sellers, with sellers in, for example, the USA or Norway or Switzerland perhaps refusing to go through the hassle of registering for EU VAT, making it impossible to get orders below €150 through customs because the VAT has not been paid. Remember that even as part of the EU we still expected to trade with the rest of the world.
What I was saying is that this new policy is not part of the UK-EU "Brexit" agreement and was going to happen anyway, initally in the spring of 2020 but that was delayed by the EU until July 2021 and in the end the UK brought it into force first, presumably to bundle all the imminent tax and customs changes together. If it had happened before "Brexit" then the EU would have had the same law and much less of a meal would have been made of it post-Brexit.

Honestly, a lot of the purchases from EU sellers below £135 will be via Ebay or Amazon anyway and they will have registered as soon as they could. People selling through that sort of marketplace don't need to give a toss about it as it's all done for them, which was precisely the aim of the legislation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:21 pm 
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We now will have a reduced choice of EU retailers because some won't be bothered to VAT register in the UK.

This was the point CitTone was making and you replied saying "this is not a consequence of Brexit" and "The annoying thing is people blaming it on Brexit...", & "There are plenty of consequences of Brexit that people can moan about without having to make things up."

No-one is making anything up - we're now going to have (to a degree yet to be defined) reduced availability of EU sold goods, 100% as a direct result of Brexit, and that is a valid and non made up complaint about the consequences of Brexit. Understand you have now clarified though and acknowledged that it is down to Brexit- just not the Brexit agreement specifically.

Yes it also affects non-EU trade but as we all know (a) that was represents a minority of our trade, and (b) non-EU was already a pain in the whatsit due to rip off couriers handling the import duty at vast cost. So it is right and proper that it would have caused fewer raised eyebrows were we still in the EU- it would have caused causes far fewer problems, for far fewer people, in that event.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:27 pm 
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It's ok though. We don't need the EU. If we can't/don't make it in the UK it isn't worth having...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:46 pm 
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I'm depressed about it now. I kept schtum about it all after the referrendum, but now we're seeing the reality. At least we sorted out the tiny but overly vocal section of the community that is fishermen (that made more than their fair contribution towards the tipping of the debate in the direction of Brexit). Oh wait...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:42 pm 
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Espin99T wrote:
A polite reminder that Brexit ramifications/effects are allowed to be discussed as per the notice linked below in ''Forum Rules, Announcements, FAQ, Forum Admin Questions & Suggestions.''

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=170598

In particular please note the following contained within that post;

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ANYTHING PARTY POLITICAL WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED – however, the issues forthcoming will not specifically be party political some/most of the time therefore discussions will be allowed to continue.
As the above suggests, any posts/threads deemed to be promoting/slating (or otherwise) a particular Political stance (as judged by us) will be removed without notice or explanation to the poster.


A reminder!!

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