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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:22 pm 
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:mrgreen: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=21442

99 turbo and a good little write up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:41 pm 
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SORRY.... TO BE AN ANORAK

BUT THAT IS A 16V NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINED 99 EMS RALLY CAR,AND I DO NOT THINK 1979 EITHER......


PISTONHEADS NEED TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK.......IT SHOULD LOOK LIKE THIS!

THE 99 TURBO ON THE RIGHT WAS IN 1979 COLOURS,WHICH ALTHOUGH BLUE/YELLOW FEATURED A RED 'TURBO' CIRCLE INCORPORATED INTO THE BONNET AND SIDE STRIPES.

THE CAR ON THE LEFT WAS AN EMS 16V,WITH SIMILAR STRIPES,BUT 'SAAB EMS' INCORPARATED INTO THE BONNET AND SIDE STRIPES.......

THE ORANGE/WHITE CAR WAS USED SHORTLY AFTERWARDS.......INDEED 'STIG BLOMQVIST' WON THE '79 SWEDISH IN A 99 TURBO,BEING THE FIRST TURBOCHARGED CAR TO EVER WIN A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT.......


NICE OF 'PISTONHEADS' TO RECOGNISE THE ACHIEVEMENT OF RECENT DAYS ANYHOW :wink:


Attachments:
16V EMS....99 TURBO.jpg
16V EMS....99 TURBO.jpg [ 37.07 KiB | Viewed 3132 times ]
1560-80blomqvist-ypres.jpg
1560-80blomqvist-ypres.jpg [ 55.41 KiB | Viewed 3132 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Birdiemango. That is the kind of anorakyness we need more of. Bravo. Your pictures are great too. How much more oomph did the non-turbo engine get with 16v over 8v then?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Allan B wrote:
Birdiemango. That is the kind of anorakyness we need more of. Bravo. Your pictures are great too. How much more oomph did the non-turbo engine get with 16v over 8v then?


FIRST OF ALL,THE 'PISTONHEADS PHOTO' IS OF BLOMQVIST WINNING THE 1977 SWEDISH RALLY
:wink:

I BELIEVE SAAB FIRST STARTED EXPERIMENTING WITH THE 99 IN AROUND 1974 AS A POTENTIAL RALLY CAR,FIRST EXAMPLES BASED ON THE 99 EMS FEATURED 135 BHP.OVER THE FOLLOWING MONTHS,SAAB COMPETITIONS DEPT HAD MANGED TO RAISE THE OUTPUT OF THE 99 8V ENGINE TO AROUND 185 BHP.

THE 16V BELT DRIVEN CYLINDER HEAD WAS THEN ADAPTED TO FIT THE 8V ENGINE,(PURPORTEDLY REJECTED BY VOLVO) TO RELEASE AROUND 225 BHP FROM THE NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE WITH TWIN 48 WEBERS.SOME STORIES ARE AROUND,THAT NEARER 240 BHP WAS REACHED.........
IT WAS INTRODUCED FOR A VERY SHORT 1976 SEASON,BEFORE FIA RULE CHANGES OUTLAWED THE ENGINE,AS IRONICALLY 'SAAB' WAS SUCH A SMALL MANUFACTURER ,THEY COULD NOT INVEST IN THE 400 ENGINES NECESSARY FOR COMPETITION PURPOSES.
THE RULING DID NOT APPLY IN SWEDEN HOWEVER,AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A PICTURE OF STIG ON 'PISTONHEADS',ON THE 1977 SWEDISH IN THE 16V EMS.....

HOWEVER WHILST ALL THIS WAS GOING ON, A YOUNG GEOFFREY KERSHAW,WHOM WAS WITH GARRETT AIRESEARCH,WAS RECRUITED BY 'SAAB' TO WORK CLOSELY WITH THE COMPETITIONS DEPT,DEVELOPING THE 99 TURBO.
GEOFFREY STILL HAS PROTOTYPE,SILVER 'SAAB 99 EMS TURBO 1',IT IS SAT IN HIS GARAGE ,IN BITS:cen:

SAAB GAVE IT HIM AS A 'DEVELOPMENT&RESEARCH VEHICLE',AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE TRIED TO BUY IT BACK..............
ALAS GEOFFREY WENT ON TO FOUND 'TURBO TECHNICS'& THE REST IS HISTORY........


YOU ONLY GET TO FIND THESE THINGS OUT BY TALKING TO PEOPLE....AND I WILL TALK TO ANYONE,IF IT MEANS I CAN GAIN SOME KNOWLEDGE.....

I SPOKE TO GEOFFREY,TWELVE MONTHS AGO,AT 'AUTOSPORT INTERNATIONAL',REGARDING SOME ADVICE,ON RUNNING MY 99 TURBO IN MOTORSPORT.......

WE HAD AN INTRESTING CONVERSATION,HIS EYES LIT UP WHEN I PULLED OUT THE PHOTOGRAPHS.......... :wink:


Attachments:
1978_saab_sport_and_rally_catalog.jpg
1978_saab_sport_and_rally_catalog.jpg [ 108.97 KiB | Viewed 3100 times ]
99RallyCarEnginePass.jpg
99RallyCarEnginePass.jpg [ 75.15 KiB | Viewed 3100 times ]
saab-99-197x-rally.jpg
saab-99-197x-rally.jpg [ 59.57 KiB | Viewed 3100 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:29 pm 
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If I was Lance Cole I would be :cen: bricks right now. Get your work in print, fella :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Allan B wrote:
If I was Lance Cole I would be :cen: bricks right now. Get your work in print, fella :D



IF ONLY I HAD THE TIME :wink:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17835

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Holy Swarfega!

I will settle down to read all that / ogle the pics when I have a few hours to spare

An inspirational project. Respect.

8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Allan B wrote:
Holy Swarfega!

I will settle down to read all that / ogle the pics when I have a few hours to spare

An inspirational project. Respect.

8)


Days Allan,.......days , not hours.... :)
Ian.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Aintree 900 wrote:
Allan B wrote:
Holy Swarfega!

I will settle down to read all that / ogle the pics when I have a few hours to spare

An inspirational project. Respect.

8)


Days Allan,.......days , not hours.... :)
Ian.



Actually, I had another quick look. You're not kidding!

:D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:38 pm 
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I might be able to help with some info on the 16V head that Volvo had Recardo do development on, but dropped for the B230s, i am sure it came under the project name "Invar23", they were meant to be used on the Volvo 340/240 rallycross 350bhp monsters, i should have pictures somewhere.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:48 am 
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BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
Allan B wrote:
Birdiemango. That is the kind of anorakyness we need more of. Bravo. Your pictures are great too. How much more oomph did the non-turbo engine get with 16v over 8v then?


FIRST OF ALL,THE 'PISTONHEADS PHOTO' IS OF BLOMQVIST WINNING THE 1977 SWEDISH RALLY
:wink:

I BELIEVE SAAB FIRST STARTED EXPERIMENTING WITH THE 99 IN AROUND 1974 AS A POTENTIAL RALLY CAR,FIRST EXAMPLES BASED ON THE 99 EMS FEATURED 135 BHP.OVER THE FOLLOWING MONTHS,SAAB COMPETITIONS DEPT HAD MANGED TO RAISE THE OUTPUT OF THE 99 8V ENGINE TO AROUND 185 BHP.

THE 16V BELT DRIVEN CYLINDER HEAD WAS THEN ADAPTED TO FIT THE 8V ENGINE,(PURPORTEDLY REJECTED BY VOLVO) TO RELEASE AROUND 225 BHP FROM THE NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE WITH TWIN 48 WEBERS.SOME STORIES ARE AROUND,THAT NEARER 240 BHP WAS REACHED.........
IT WAS INTRODUCED FOR A VERY SHORT 1976 SEASON,BEFORE FIA RULE CHANGES OUTLAWED THE ENGINE,AS IRONICALLY 'SAAB' WAS SUCH A SMALL MANUFACTURER ,THEY COULD NOT INVEST IN THE 400 ENGINES NECESSARY FOR COMPETITION PURPOSES.
THE RULING DID NOT APPLY IN SWEDEN HOWEVER,AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A PICTURE OF STIG ON 'PISTONHEADS',ON THE 1977 SWEDISH IN THE 16V EMS.....

HOWEVER WHILST ALL THIS WAS GOING ON, A YOUNG GEOFFREY KERSHAW,WHOM WAS WITH GARRETT AIRESEARCH,WAS RECRUITED BY 'SAAB' TO WORK CLOSELY WITH THE COMPETITIONS DEPT,DEVELOPING THE 99 TURBO.
GEOFFREY STILL HAS PROTOTYPE,SILVER 'SAAB 99 EMS TURBO 1',IT IS SAT IN HIS GARAGE ,IN BITS:cen:

SAAB GAVE IT HIM AS A 'DEVELOPMENT&RESEARCH VEHICLE',AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE TRIED TO BUY IT BACK..............
ALAS GEOFFREY WENT ON TO FOUND 'TURBO TECHNICS'& THE REST IS HISTORY........


YOU ONLY GET TO FIND THESE THINGS OUT BY TALKING TO PEOPLE....AND I WILL TALK TO ANYONE,IF IT MEANS I CAN GAIN SOME KNOWLEDGE.....

I SPOKE TO GEOFFREY,TWELVE MONTHS AGO,AT 'AUTOSPORT INTERNATIONAL',REGARDING SOME ADVICE,ON RUNNING MY 99 TURBO IN MOTORSPORT.......

WE HAD AN INTRESTING CONVERSATION,HIS EYES LIT UP WHEN I PULLED OUT THE PHOTOGRAPHS.......... :wink:


Birdie, you mentioned the 99 was first used in competition around 1974 based on the EMS, correct, but the hp was not 135, it was 110 and it's actually the silver car in the pic you posted, with 'TEST 110 HP' on the side of the bonnet, reg HBZ 324 driven by Lasse Jansson in the Arctic Stages. It was prepared for the Swedish standard A regulations, which basically meant no modifications apart from 'blueprinting'.

As for the 16v head, I'm not too sure about the Volvo connection, until some substantial proof comes along I'll take it with a pinch of salt, but i am here to be convinced otherwise.
Initially the 16v head was offered by Weslake, but the cost was too high, so Saab settled for the Axelsson head. Saab managed to get to around 170bhp with the 8v engine, the 16v unit got to 220bhp straight away at 7500rpm, with some more tweeking they managed 235bhp at 9000rpm still using the standard bottom end, the extra power was found by changing cams and induction.

I have quite a rare pic of the 16v engine on test at the engine dyno in Trollhattan, when i get time I'll dig it out.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:03 am 
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sonett wrote:
BIRDIEMANGO wrote:
Allan B wrote:
Birdiemango. That is the kind of anorakyness we need more of. Bravo. Your pictures are great too. How much more oomph did the non-turbo engine get with 16v over 8v then?


FIRST OF ALL,THE 'PISTONHEADS PHOTO' IS OF BLOMQVIST WINNING THE 1977 SWEDISH RALLY
:wink:

I BELIEVE SAAB FIRST STARTED EXPERIMENTING WITH THE 99 IN AROUND 1974 AS A POTENTIAL RALLY CAR,FIRST EXAMPLES BASED ON THE 99 EMS FEATURED 135 BHP.OVER THE FOLLOWING MONTHS,SAAB COMPETITIONS DEPT HAD MANGED TO RAISE THE OUTPUT OF THE 99 8V ENGINE TO AROUND 185 BHP.

THE 16V BELT DRIVEN CYLINDER HEAD WAS THEN ADAPTED TO FIT THE 8V ENGINE,(PURPORTEDLY REJECTED BY VOLVO) TO RELEASE AROUND 225 BHP FROM THE NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE WITH TWIN 48 WEBERS.SOME STORIES ARE AROUND,THAT NEARER 240 BHP WAS REACHED.........
IT WAS INTRODUCED FOR A VERY SHORT 1976 SEASON,BEFORE FIA RULE CHANGES OUTLAWED THE ENGINE,AS IRONICALLY 'SAAB' WAS SUCH A SMALL MANUFACTURER ,THEY COULD NOT INVEST IN THE 400 ENGINES NECESSARY FOR COMPETITION PURPOSES.
THE RULING DID NOT APPLY IN SWEDEN HOWEVER,AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A PICTURE OF STIG ON 'PISTONHEADS',ON THE 1977 SWEDISH IN THE 16V EMS.....

HOWEVER WHILST ALL THIS WAS GOING ON, A YOUNG GEOFFREY KERSHAW,WHOM WAS WITH GARRETT AIRESEARCH,WAS RECRUITED BY 'SAAB' TO WORK CLOSELY WITH THE COMPETITIONS DEPT,DEVELOPING THE 99 TURBO.
GEOFFREY STILL HAS PROTOTYPE,SILVER 'SAAB 99 EMS TURBO 1',IT IS SAT IN HIS GARAGE ,IN BITS:cen:

SAAB GAVE IT HIM AS A 'DEVELOPMENT&RESEARCH VEHICLE',AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE TRIED TO BUY IT BACK..............
ALAS GEOFFREY WENT ON TO FOUND 'TURBO TECHNICS'& THE REST IS HISTORY........


YOU ONLY GET TO FIND THESE THINGS OUT BY TALKING TO PEOPLE....AND I WILL TALK TO ANYONE,IF IT MEANS I CAN GAIN SOME KNOWLEDGE.....

I SPOKE TO GEOFFREY,TWELVE MONTHS AGO,AT 'AUTOSPORT INTERNATIONAL',REGARDING SOME ADVICE,ON RUNNING MY 99 TURBO IN MOTORSPORT.......

WE HAD AN INTRESTING CONVERSATION,HIS EYES LIT UP WHEN I PULLED OUT THE PHOTOGRAPHS.......... :wink:


Birdie, you mentioned the 99 was first used in competition around 1974 based on the EMS, correct, but the hp was not 135, it was 110 and it's actually the silver car in the pic you posted, with 'TEST 110 HP' on the side of the bonnet, reg HBZ 324 driven by Lasse Jansson in the Arctic Stages. It was prepared for the Swedish standard A regulations, which basically meant no modifications apart from 'blueprinting'.

As for the 16v head, I'm not too sure about the Volvo connection, until some substantial proof comes along I'll take it with a pinch of salt, but i am here to be convinced otherwise.
Initially the 16v head was offered by Weslake, but the cost was too high, so Saab settled for the Axelsson head. Saab managed to get to around 170bhp with the 8v engine, the 16v unit got to 220bhp straight away at 7500rpm, with some more tweeking they managed 235bhp at 9000rpm still using the standard bottom end, the extra power was found by changing cams and induction.

I have quite a rare pic of the 16v engine on test at the engine dyno in Trollhattan, when i get time I'll dig it out.



Wow. It gets better. You guys could speak at a Saab conference. Thicko alert: presumably the 70s road cars never achieved this because 9000rpm murders your engine after a while?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:54 pm 
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sonett wrote:

I BELIEVE SAAB FIRST STARTED EXPERIMENTING WITH THE 99 IN AROUND 1974 AS A POTENTIAL RALLY CAR,FIRST EXAMPLES BASED ON THE 99 EMS FEATURED 135 BHP.OVER THE FOLLOWING MONTHS,SAAB COMPETITIONS DEPT HAD MANGED TO RAISE THE OUTPUT OF THE 99 8V ENGINE TO AROUND 185 BHP......

Birdie, you mentioned the 99 was first used in competition around 1974 based on the EMS, correct, but the hp was not 135, it was 110 and it's actually the silver car in the pic you posted, with 'TEST 110 HP' on the side of the bonnet, reg HBZ 324 driven by Lasse Jansson in the Arctic Stages. It was prepared for the Swedish standard A regulations, which basically meant no modifications apart from 'blueprinting'.

I have quite a rare pic of the 16v engine on test at the engine dyno in Trollhattan, when i get time I'll dig it out.



DAVE,I HAVE GOT AN ARTICLE SOMEHWERE.....WITH A PIC OF PER EKLUND,IN THE SILVER EMS,GREEN HOCKEY STRIPE..& THE CAR I AM SURE, IS SPECCED TO 135 BHP,ONLY SOME ENGINE MODIFICATIONS WERE ALLOWED,TO ENTER A DOMESTIC SWEDISH CHAMPIONSHIP,ALONGSIDE ANOTHER DRIVER.....I DON'T THINK IT WAS STIG?

OBVIOUSLY THE V4 WAS STILL BEING CAMPAIGNED AT AROUND THIS POINT,AS WELL........WITH EXPERIMENTAL TURBOCHARGING IN RALLYCROSS...
THIS WOULD PROBABLY BE 1975,AS 1976 THE 99 WAS BLACK,WITH BLUE/YELLOW STRIPES......?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:08 pm 
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'SONETT'
OK,HAVE SEARCHED THROUGH SOME MATERIAL,THE PRINTED TYPE,NOT'' GOOGLE''........

'MARTIN HOLMES' INTERVIEW 1976 WITH STIG BLOMQVIST....

''PER (EKLUND)HAS DONE A LOT OF SWEDISH EVENTS WITH A 99.....IN THE STANDARD CAR CLASS AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE GEARBOX.IT IS VERY STRONG.''


ANOTHER QUESTION,''HOW MUCH POWER DOES THE 99 HAVE?''

STIG, ''220 BHP WITH 16V ENGINE AND THE NORMAL 8V OHC ENGINE ABOUT 180 BHP''


THE FIRST QUOTE REGARDING EKLUND, SEEMS TO SUPPORT,THE ARTICLE I RECALL.......HOW FAR ANY MODIFICATIONS,COULD BE TAKEN AT THE TIME,I DO NOT KNOW,EVEN THOUGH THE CARS WERE CLOSE TO STANDARD?

I WOULD IMAGINE 'JOHAN' MAY BE ABLE TO HELP CLARIFY THINGS?

I ALSO HAVE A PHOTO OF THE EARLY 99 EMS,ALLEGING A CANADIAN CHAMPION 'JEAN-PAUL PERUSSE',DROVE IT ON THE RAC RALLY WITH A CLAIMED 130 BHP.....DOESN'T GIVE A YEAR BUT IT IS JUST SILVER,NO GREEN HOCKEY STRIPE,SO MAYBE 1975...?


INCIDENTALLY,BOTH STIG AND PER'S BLACK 99 EMS 16V WEIGHED IN AT 1174 KG AT THE START OF THE 1976 RAC RALLY.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:29 am 
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It should be safe to say the plain silver EMS cars that were used are in standard form and when the green hockey stripe was introduced the cars were modified to some level, but of course there will probably an exception somewhere along the line :roll: As the years went by, obviously the cars power output increased

The article in 'Teknikens Varld' on the EMS 16v had it weighing in at 1090kg compared to 1110kg for the standard EMS they were using in the article.
The car on test was the black works EMS 16v reg number JNF 756.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:27 am 
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Good pic of the 99 16v EMS engine on the dyno at Trollhattan 8)

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:27 pm 
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nice pics

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:37 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 99 ems
Is it possible to see that picture with the 16 valve engine in the dyno again ?
Kind regards Åke


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:12 pm 
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I would also like to see that above picture / article in detail if possible. For some reason photobucket are blocking it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 99 ems
It looks like it came from a car magazine ,, not seen such article here in sweden ,
About the posts before ,, the head was created 1968 to fit volvo B20 ,
But Volvo show cold hand , so only a few of these where made , on the valvecover is the inventors name
Axelsson ,
But saab heard of him and after some blueprint remake to fit saab 99 engine case they cast 100 in summer of 1975 ,,
The first rally with saab 99 was in Artic rally in Finland it was 110 hp as you says ,,
In summer 1974 the test the 8 valve engine with a spec 2 tuning and it was give 180 hp ,
It was a silvery ems with orange decor , when it be 16 valves it was silver with green decor ,
But Eklund drove the class Std A in sweden with a silvergreen car as well , but the Jcb297 was about 135 hp in ,
If you have pictures on the car Hxe 404 , the boucle de spa car from 1976 ,
Im intrested to find a picture that can tell where the battery is placed ,,
Kind regards Åke


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