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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 pm
Posts: 10
Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
Just bought a 2005 9-5 aero manual on Sunday, cars got 132k on it with FSH. Got 6 months MOT but heard couple of wee clunking noises so stuck it into a Saab indy late on Monday to give it an overall check over. Turns out there's quite a few things wrong with it. Debating about just returning or getting it fixed. I paid £995 for it.

Here is what's wrong;

Power steering pipes corroded and leaking
Front subframe rear bushes worn
Trackrod end worn
Oil leak at gearbox selector shaft seal
Engine chains have slight noise
Small amount of smoke from engine on startup
Exhaust hangers, couple missing
2 X tyres

I don't mind getting wear and tear stuff fixed but seems like quite a lot, garage said the subframe bushes roughly would be about £400 on their own, and the power steering pipes wouldn't be a cheap fix. All in all, it might set me back closer to the price I paid for the car for repairs.

Looking at the price of similar cars online they seem to go for around £1500 or so, and even then trying to find a manual is a pain.

Any concerns over the chain noise and small smoke on startup? I know the smoke could mean a potential for anything tho turbo/seals etc.

What you all think?

Appreciate the responses.

Mick


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:10 pm
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Car Model: Alfa
If you buy a car it really is your responsability to see that everythings good on it, if you dont know about cars then take someone with you who does.
Where did you buy it from ?
Tyres and any leaks are 1 of the 1st things you check for and 1 of the easiest things to see though the rest i grant you is harder to spot ...
Genuinely feel your pain as ive been in the exact situation and the feeling of been ripped off and left with a lemon is annoying to say the least and thats when i bought some spanners and started fixing things myself , but, if they have put sold as seen on the receipt then im not sure theres a lot you can do, though i could be wrong which wouldnt be the 1st time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:24 pm
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9000 Anni, 9-5s by the score
If it's been bought privately then "sold as seen" or otherwise I think you'd have little to no chance or retuning it.

If you have been trying to find an Aero like this for a while then I'd be inclined to stick with it and repair or replace when needed.

The only concern to me is the power steering pipes. I've read a couple of postings on here that related the "fun" when it finally goes and dumps fluid.

Next would be the tyres, obviously. As for the rest is wait till closer to MOT time for the bushes and stuff. If it passes then they can wait some more.

Add in the decision of if it's supposed to be a keeper or not. If Plan A is a long-term keeper then paying out for a full refresh of *all* the bushes at some point makes sense. I did that and new suspension all round. Last year on one of my fleet. But it's a keeper for me.

Sort the tyres, get the power steering pipe sorted and run it a while.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:21 am 
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My 2009 disgorged PAS fluid on the A329 on leaving Bracknell about 2 years ago....driving the car to a safe place was 'interesting' to say the least. Not a cheap repair.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1482
Location: Peterborough UK
Car Model: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
A 2005 Saab 9-5 with 132K will always have issues unless its been lovingly cared for.

Most of the above is fair wear and tear and should be accessed when viewing the car prior to purchase.
A lot of the diagnosis is also subjective......turbo/timing chain/sub frame bushes..potentially a lot of money to put completely right.
You can easily check the chain by removing the tensioner and measuring how far over its extended during its life.
Most 9-5's will give some degree of chain noise but really how bad is it?
Power steering pipes is a common problem (cooling loop) and that one could leave you stranded.

Did your Indy quote you for repairs?

I would suspect a lot more than you paid for the car..........so its your call if you can indeed return it or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
Depends on how handy you are with the spanners. Subframe bushes can be done on the drive - if you remove the subframe it makes access to the power steering pipes fairly easy, in fact you can change both (i.e., from the power steering pump right through to the rack). Dropping the sump and cleaning it out is also much easier whilst the subframe is off. Spoke on startup could be the turbo seals ...

My manual aero estate needed a few things doing to it, probably the worst case for oil usage is what mine had - valve guide wear, leading to gummed up oil control ring(s) - think it was in just one piston IIRC.

Cost quite a lot to get that sorted - but I had the timing and balance chains, clutch, slave cylinder, water pump and main/big end bearings swapped out at the same time. It’s all good again now, oil usage has dropped to virtually none and it’s not getting contaminated anywhere near as quickly as it was before.

Part of the reason why I kept mine was the spec - manual box with heated and ventilated front seats, in an estate - so difficult to find a replacement. If you’re not as fussy about spec, you might get lucky and find another ...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:03 am 
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
Car was bought from a small car sales, so as it is still a registered car dealership it will still fall under the Consumer Rights Act as it has to;

- be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
- meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
- be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).

This car currently fails on the last point at the very least.

Wear and tear stuff like the subframe bushes and trackrod end I could live with. I had also planned to replace the exhaust at some point as well.

Main concerns were the power steering pipes, tyres, gearbox seal, engine chain and the smoke on startup.

I'm debating about asking the dealer to sort the power steering pipes, gearbox seal and tyres...maybe the trackrod end.

I would like to keep it long term, at least a couple/few years, judging the previous owner had it regularly serviced I can accept the other things being wear and tear for the age.

I just dont see the dealer paying out for the majority of these repairs, as lets face it, it will cost near enough what the car costs.

Wear and tear will happen, its happened on my XC90 but you accept it as its just the age of the car, its just the fact this car cost £1k, then you're looking at a near enough immediate bill of the same because of how much wear and tear has went wrong right now.

Some basic stuff I feel confident enough doing on my own, brakes, service, exhaust, etc as i have done on my previous cars, but even having a look at how to change the subframe bushes looks a hell of a job, and personally something I dont have the confidence on doing myself. Also its the tools as well, best I have is a trolley jack and a couple of axle stands, sockets, spanners, usual but no driveway, so would be first attempting these things on the street which isn't ideal.

Smoke on startup I was thinking could be the turbo seals when the tech told me, it isnt at a catastrophically bad stage but its obviously not going to get better. The guy who looked over it was a Saab master tech and knew these cars quite well. He wasnt overly concerned though about it, put it down to age of the car.

I have been on the lookout for some time for a manual Aero, they dont come up that often within a radius I can travel.

I'd maybe be willing to put 4/500 of my own cash towards repairs if the dealer sorted the rest, mainly because the car was cheaper than the average price I have seen them for in my surrounding areas, so effectively that would take it close to an average price but at least then I'd know most stuff was fixed, and I'd know what needed to be done next.

Regarding quotes for repair, no idea, it was just a health check over it, I might pop along and see the garage again today to get rough estimates, they said bushes alone (and labour) you're looking at £400.

Appreciate the responses.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:41 am
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Location: Royal Tunbridge Wells
Car Model: '03 9-5 2.3 Vector Auto Estate
I would have thought that the main safety issue would be the leaking steering pipe. Surely this would be an MOT fail. The tyres are 'roadworthy' if they are legal, ie over 1.6mm tread, not severe cuts etc so is something you check and negotiate at the time of purchase. The other points are somewhat subjective as 'wear and tear'.
It might be worth going back and asking for the steering pipe to be fixed as 'unsafe', and the tyres if they are not roadworthy. Dealer cars have a 3 month warranty don't they?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:56 am 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
Turbo failing at that age and mileage isn’t unheard of, you *should* be able to get away with replacing just the core, which is about £150 for a melett (good quality) one.

I wouldn’t attempt a subframe drop in the street ...

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:22 am
Posts: 268
Location: Bristol
Car Model: OG 9-3 SE
Playing devil's advocate slightly, I think you'd struggle with the tyres, you accepted the car with the tyres as they were, it's not a hidden fault that requires expert diagnosis.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
tbf, I did notice the tyres at the time but I genuinely thought they were just over, so thought as long as I get a few weeks/month out them will change when I get paid at end of the month.

Without repeating it all again; I wouldnt have minded as much if lets say if I put it in a garage and they said 2 x tyres are low, subframe bushes, trackrod end, usual wear and tear. Just the fact the tyres were illegal though, and also the power steering pipes.

As much as its partly my fault for not ensuring the tyres are roadworthy before driving, its also the dealers fault as the car must be fit for purpose, so there is obvious negligence from the dealers perspective as well.

Called the guy earlier, had a short convo as he was driving, can tell straight away he's going to try every trick to not put any money out, started saying how the garage I put it into are only in it for the business, even though the mechanics advice was just to return it due to the work required. Have agreed to speak to him tomorrow and have full in depth discussion about it.

Repair cost wise, called 2 Saab indys and here is the cost;
Garage 1
Power steering pipes - £200
Subframe bushes all round - £400
Trackrod end - £50
Oil leak at gearbox selector shaft seal - £100 (maybe less depending on how long it takes)

Garage 2
Power steering pipes - £390
Subframe bushes all round (plus ARBs) - £312
Trackrod end - £102
Oil leak at gearbox selector shaft seal - £66

That mainly leaves exhaust hangers and 2 x tyres.

I've had hangers broken off before and a garage just welded something onto it, which I'd get done as a short term thing, as exhaust itself seems in OK condition for age.
2 X tyres - just say roughly £100 for talking sake, garage will fit them for £10.


If I switched the work between the 2 garages you're looking at around £750.

A lot of cash to lay out, especially if the dealer doesnt want to put anything towards it, or wont fix anything himself.

The only saving grace in it all is, I've seen these cars go for around £1500ish, and buying a car somewhere else you could be in the same situation where you dont fully know what could be wrong with it. At least if I put this money in it I know I've sorted most problems for around that price, and just need to keep an eye on that turbo.

I guess with this being a 2005 2.3 engine it shouldnt suffer from the sludging issue I have read about. Service history is immaculate, with main dealer or Saab indy carrying out the work, so have to assume that they used the correct oil.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 5872
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
Hangers may not be missing, where are/should they be exactly?

Slinging isn’t meant to be an issue with the revised breather system, however mine still suffered from valve guide wear (the spare head I sourced from eBay was apparently also affected - just not as much as mine) and one of the main bearings was close to spinning out, it was caught just in time (circa 240k on the clock).

When you say “service history”, is this a stamped up book or actual invoices for all the services? As personally I’d only accept the latter as true service history ...

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
I noticed on the back box that it only had one hanger and was slanting to the side a bit. Could see where the other hanger and rubber mount should have been. The garage told me there's another hanger missing at the front of the exhaust as well.

The cars pretty much just been parked up and left at my work for now, I've not even drove it since after the garage report, just using my Volvo to get around.

The service history - it's a 50/50. The books fully stamped but invoice wise I have half. Basically have 6 years worth of invoices for all work and servicing. Seems to have been the same place who's serviced it it's whole life with the exception of 1 service IIRC.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:11 am 
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If I were in your position and didn't want to shoulder all the repairs myself, I would go back to the trader and ask them to take it back. There's no way the trader is going to shell out hundreds or thousands to fix a car you only paid him £950 for and he doesn't have to give you that option. If he can't persuade you to put up with it then the cheapest option for him is to take the car back. He might or might not stick a couple of cheapo tyres on it and add £100 to the selling price for the next punter but that isn't your problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 pm
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Location: Peterborough UK
Car Model: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
You could always buy the parts (fairly cheaply) and agree a labour charge for fitting....that would bring your prices down.
As to hangers are we talking steel bits or the rubber hangers.
Some of the exhaust sections and aftermarket parts dont have them anyway when compared to original.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:00 am 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
Only reason I asked about the exhaust is that Saab deleted the hangers for the centre section, as I found out when I came to fit my Jetex exhaust which had a join there (the factory system doesn’t).

But - as above - if you’re unable to do/pay for the repairs, return is probably your best option.

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Location: Bedfordshire
I'm not sure you've got a very strong case for rejection.

As Which summarises it:

"If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its age and mileage, or it turns out not to be what you’d been led to expect - you may have the right to reject it and get your money back."

and

"When you buy a second-hand car from a used-car dealership in the UK, you have rights under the Consumer Rights Act (which replaced the Sale of Goods Act from 1 October 2015). You should expect the car to:

- be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
- meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
- be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).

It's important that you take into account the mileage, age and how the car is described to you"

I wouldn't really say any of those problems were out of order for the age/mileage. If the tyres weren't legal then that is pretty clear cut but the rest of it is rather subjective. Of course in anything were to fail within the warranty period, then of course you can have it repaired, but asking for a pre-emptive repair is not your right. The trader may say fine, if you don't want it as is I'll take it back, but don't read it as he's obliged to.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:33 am 
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
Just wanted to end this thread by saying thanks for everyone's advice/opinion on this. I'm leaning towards just keeping the car, getting the work done then I know it's there's a few wear and tear things out the way.
Mick


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:24 pm
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9000 Anni, 9-5s by the score
We need photos of it all shiny, it's the Rules.

:D :D :D

I hope you get to enjoy the car as much as I enjoy my *cough* fleet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
I will try my best to get some photos on as soon as I can, I need to service the Saab, service my XC90 and my girlfriends Fiesta as soon as I can, as well as decorating one of my kids bedroom in the next week, also start a new job next Monday so lets say the next month or so should be a chaotic time period.
Mick


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