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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:56 am 
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razani wrote:
Jules is looking through his archives to trace the 1st map. This map started to throw cels on my car (and when fitted to Nelliems) so Jules sent me a map incorporating Nelliems cruise maps and the cels disappeared, what I call my "hybrid" map. It just may be that my boost loss stemmed from that map change. I was concentrating on the cel issue and not aware if I had a boost problem so installing the original map should clear that up.

Installed that map and no difference, infact slightly worse, so gone back to my "hybrid" map.
I seem to have two conflicting proofs;
!. It is a software issue re. the times i have hit 1.5 bar with other ecus and connecting c/w.
2. It is a hardware issue re. the ecu switch with Nelliem
For the moment I am parking this issue. I will be taking the car to Greece at the end of the month so any further thoughts will have to wait.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:31 am 
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Are you using the same ECU when you "swap" maps, such as the one above from Jules?

If you are then that seems to me to be the remaining item that's been consistent with "your" maps. I can't think of a solid reason why the physical ECU could be the problem apart from iffy connectors but the thought just occurred to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:36 pm 
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DeeDub8 wrote:
Are you using the same ECU when you "swap" maps, such as the one above from Jules?

Yes, in the main but not 100% the case. There have been at least 2 ecus involved. In any case the ecus worked in Nelliems car so that would tend to rule out a physical fault. That leaves the wiring and big connector but I got my boost back with my old stg 3 ecu so it ain't that either


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 pm 
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I still think the software is getting a false signal which is causing it to hold the boost back, and that some software versions are programmed to ignore that signal for some reason.

Its just finding out which one.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Just for elimination purposes really and it is about the only thing I haven't changed, I will change the actuator. The existing actuator has dynoed at 1.5 bar several times on different configurations but it is worth a try particularly as Nelliem has a Forge unit he will loan me to test.
The preload should be 3.5 turns, I will check that on the existing TT unit first. Current base is 0.5 bar. I will take it up to 0.6 ( perhaps 0.65) and see what happens, then do the same with the Forge. Initially I guess I will have to set base on the Forge statically. I plan to do this by pressurising the diapragm to 0.6 then coupling the wastegate arm. That should put me in the ballpark before I check dynamically on the road then adjust as necessary. Is this correct? I won't get round to this until end of May but just want to get matters clear before, perhaps try and source a large dial 1 bar gauge for better accuracy.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm 
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You should be winding the arm so that it needs just a tiny tug to get it on to the flapper (so that as it seats it does pull on the flapper ever so slightly).

Base boost (that is the boost required to overpower the spring and open the gate) is entirely a property of the spring, and no action whatsoever is required to "set" it other than hooking it on properly (i.e. as I describe). It cannot be adjusted, unless you have some sort of actuator I'm not aware of, or you take it off and change the spring.

You should not be pumping any pressure into any part of the system as you hook it all up.

Recommend you take the arm off the turbo and feel where the flapper needs to be, to be totally shut. Then feel where it needs to be to be totally open. Then hook the arm on, with minimal preload (maybe 1mm). Then pump pressure into the actuator down the pipe that normally hooks up to the w hose on the APC. You are expecting the arm to start to move at 0.5 bar (assuming you have a 0.5 bar spring) and then as you increase the pressure the am should push the flapper into a very open position. Then release the pressure and it should snap back closed.

If it does that, the actuator is fine.

Then go for a burn with the APC to actuator hose still disconnected. You should get massive overboost.

Then go for a burn with the APC hoses connected but the electrical connector unplugged. You should get base boost.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Borrowed the Forge actuator. I have a TD04 on the workbench to which I can hook up the actuators and check just when the wastegate disc is free to spin. This happens at 0.3.5/0.4 bar with the std Saab actuator. It was the same with the Forge-no difference. The Forge is fitted with a green spring (0.7 bar) which is their weakest.I guess observing the pressure when the valve just lifts off on the workbench and assuming it is the same as base boost is not quite the same as what is observed dynamically on the road but would welcome comments. For the moment just checking the actuators out like for like on the bench.When Forge says the spring is rated at 0.7 bar what do they mean, base/boost/or something else?
I am mapped for stg 5 and 1.5 bar so what spring and base boost should I have ideally. Assume it is not critical as the ecu should take care of any mismatch. Haven't got round to checking out the TT, wont do that until back from Greece


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:03 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
When Forge says the spring is rated at 0.7 bar what do they mean, base/boost/or something else?


They mean that the spring should be strong enough to resist 0.7 bar of boost before the actuator rod extends and the wastegate opens. i.e. that is base boost (which as I say is entirely a property of the spring and not something you can manipulate, despite some others from time to time asserting the contrary).

But if you're sticking a pump on it and it's opening at < 0.4 bar then it's not what it says it is (or it's tired).

Base boost wants to be around half of peak boost- maybe a bit lower. 0.5-0.7 ideally for 1.5 bar target.

If the flapper is blowing open because the spring is not strong enough to hold it shut, then this would be why you have no boost. But you can test that by running the car with the APC hose disconnected from the actuator- if it's OK you will see unlimited boost, if not then boost will be limited.

This is why it is important that you set it up exactly as I wrote, and then test it in the two ways I described.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Jules_ht wrote:
But if you're sticking a pump on it and it's opening at < 0.4 bar then it's not what it says it is (or it's tired).

I am using speedparts 2"" gauge (1.5 bar max) that I checked against a more industrial scale 63mm gauge but it is clear something more accurate is needed for this work. There is also what is meant by "flapper just opening" From just being able to turn it with a finger to spinning it takes 0.1 bar .The base boost for the std Saab TD04 acuator is 0.45+/-0.03 so it may well be fine. The Forge is new and in their blurb they do state that the green spring is equivalent to std, which squares with the bench test but then we have the 0.7 bar spec.
Jules_ht wrote:
f the flapper is blowing open because the spring is not strong enough to hold it shut, then this would be why you have no boost. But you can test that by running the car with the APC hose disconnected from the actuator- if it's OK you will see unlimited boost, if not then boost will be limited.

I have already run my setup with C to W and got 1.5 so you are saying it may well be an actuator issue. Whatever since , thanks to Nelliem I don't have to shell out for an actuator it seems worth my time to explore it further even if I have to try a stronger spring to up the base. Nelliem is running a base of 0.7 on his stg 5


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:24 am 
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razani67 wrote:
I have already run my setup with C to W and got 1.5

Can you clarify- c to w, what? Connected directly to each other, or disconnected completely from each other? Either way that sounds wrong- connected you should get base boost, disconnected you should be able to hit > 2 bar no problem at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:08 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
beardydave wrote:
To check the knock sensor you need to install a knock sensor monitor using an LED from the ECU. But the knock sensor is in the DI-pack, so changing that out is quicker and easier.

I never realised that.Changed to another DI - same result.
Disconnected all APC pipes then connected W to C. Saw 1.5 bar straightaway then eased off. Didn't want to hit cut-out.
Put pipes back and disconnected electrical connector, Boost 0.5 climbing to 0.6 with revs
Reconnected electrics - back to 1 bar.
Looks like actuator is fine and no retarding from knock sensor-Where to now?? I would suspect the T7 except I have just replaced it with a new genuine saab one.
This is a new TT turbo and actuator with base boost set by TT and I haven't touched it.It is what I dynoed at 356 HP last year.

I looped C to W. I see from the thread I did this last June. From what I remember I was very careful in case I triggered fuel cut out, even so the needle whipped round pretty smartish and would have headed north of 1.5. Tbf I was satisfied once it had whipped past 1. It indicated to me that the actuator was fine-but not sure that is an absolute given now. I am assuming what you do with the C hose has little bearing , whether connected across the apc or left on the compressor. The main point is that the wastegate is open to atm and therefore no control.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:36 pm 
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You also need to connect the compressor port to the wastegate (with no APC in the way) and measure what the wastegate is set to for base boost.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:30 am 
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beardydave wrote:
You also need to connect the compressor port to the wastegate (with no APC in the way) and measure what the wastegate is set to for base boost.


This ^^

the test should be done at the turbo, not at the APC. Connect the actual compressor port to the actual wastegate port on the turbo to measure base boost.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:03 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
Borrowed the Forge actuator. I have a TD04 on the workbench to which I can hook up the actuators and check just when the wastegate disc is free to spin. This happens at 0.3.5/0.4 bar with the std Saab actuator. It was the same with the Forge-no difference. The Forge is fitted with a green spring (0.7 bar) which is their weakest.I guess observing the pressure when the valve just lifts off on the workbench and assuming it is the same as base boost is not quite the same as what is observed dynamically on the road but would welcome comments. For the moment just checking the actuators out like for like on the bench.When Forge says the spring is rated at 0.7 bar what do they mean, base/boost/or something else?

That is what I have observed and clearly neither the springs or actuators are "tired"
Given thesre variations in actuator performance does the map have to be tailored to a specific actuator or does the ecu take care of it all? Is there any point in my trying the Forge Yellow?
As usual. any comments welcome. In the meantime the car goes fine at around 1bar and has just completed 3600mls on a trip to Greece
I am mapped for stg 5 and 1.5 bar so what spring and base boost should I have ideally. Assume it is not critical as the ecu should take care of any mismatch. Haven't got round to checking out the TT, wont do that until back from Greece

Back on the case.I have been looking at 3 actuators. The original Saab one as fitted to the TD04-15T, A Forge one marketed as a replacement, testedwith both a Green and Yellow spring, and the TT one off the car. Set up my spare std TD04 on the bench, hooked up the Mytivac pump and tested each of the actuators in turn.
1. Forge (Green) 5.0psi/15psi/14.5mm
2. Forge (Yellow) 11.0psi/24psi/13mm
3.Saab 6.0psi/15psi/15mm
4.TT 6.5/psi/23psi/19.5mm
The Forge yellow spring is rated at 15psi and the green at 10
The first no. is the pressure at which I could just spin the flapper freely, the second is the pressure at which the flapper ceased to open further, the 3rd is the actual movement of the pushrod. For this last measurement the actuator was pressurised at 22psi (1.5bar).
The Forge Yellow is sold as a direct Aero replacement and there is not much difference in the above test. The second reading is NOT the maximum opening of the flapper, it is where the flapper stops opening further and where any further increase in pressure makes no difference. I was surprised with the Forge (y) just how close the flapper still was to the port at its maximum travel (13mm) . I suspect this max travel I was seeing was down to the actuator design, depth of can, coils on spring etc and was limited by the spring binding solid. All tests were done at 2 turns pretension which was the original setting on the TT. According the Saab manual the factory pretension on the Aero is 3.5 turns.
Dont really don't know what to make of the above . The higher pressure to open the wastegate should, in theory allow an earlier build of boost, ditto the higher pressure to keep it open. On the face of it the TT looks like a good actuator and I dont see a compelling reason to change it. If I should want to try the Forge Yellow there is a problem, the pin on the TT wategate lever is a bigger diameter than the std Saab turbo so I would need to source a new turnbuckle to go with the Forge.
I am still confused by what is meant by base boost. The Wikipidea article on Boost Controller is interesting. It says springs are classified by the boost pressure they typically achieve. A 7psi spring will allow the turbo to reach equilibrium at 7psi. A problem is the wastegate will start to open well before. For instance a spring rated at 7psi may allow the wastegate to begin to open at as little as 3.5psi-says Wikipedia. So, it would seem base boost is NOT when the wastegate starts to open and is not equal to the spring pressure.
I have no idea what is meant by Turbo Equilibrium in the Wikipedia article
Edit. something went wrong in the post and my comments on base boost got implanted in the quote section, but you get the gist. The second para should be in the main body of the post


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:17 am 
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I will try the Forge. Sourced a correct turnbuckle (7.6mm) diam from Forge and the actuator is now fitted on the car with a yellow spring and 2 turns pretension. Car is off the road for the moment so it will be a couple of weeks before I try it out.
I had half convinced myself that although the springs are not "tired" perhaps they are rated for a normal Aero boost of 1bar and the wastegate has been blowing open only allowing 1.1 max. Thinking is the yellow spring should fix that. However find that difficult to square with the fact I have seen 1.5 bar several times which would indicate the TT actuator spring is fine and, as Beadydave has always suggested,the ecu is holding back. Anyway Nelliem has loaned me his Forge so I'll try it. If that doesn't work-put the kettle on Dave.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:55 am 
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It shouldn't need pre-tension. It needs to be screwed in to the point where you just have to pull a little bit to get it over the pin on the wastegate flap.

All that adding more pre-tension will do is change the effective rating of the spring to something higher. Pre-tension is just used as a bodge to try and eek out a little more life from a tired spring.


The standard ones were only designed for 1 bar of boost, but the back pressure that would force open the flap against the wastegate will be much lower, and the safety margin on design means that when new they are more than capable of holding the wastegate flap closed until it's boosting 2 bar or more. It's not that the wastegate is blowing open early under high back-pressure. That is evidenced by the other ECUs holding 1.5 bar without problem.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:58 am 
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ill add something to this as i recently managed to get some boost above the 1.1 bar this turbo seems to love.

it seems TT machine the wastegate to much.... mine makes 1.7 bar tailing off to 1.5 now but to get that it has the stiffest forge actuator (1.5bar + the internal spacer iirc) spring and plenty of pre tension (molegrips to pull the rod on...) it still blows open and thats all the boost it makes regardless of the apc connected or not...

my conclusion is the turbo's Austin Allegro and im searching for something better....it occasionally spiked to 1.5 before (twice...) but i believe it was sticking

ive checked everything else ecus, exhaust (no cat 1 muffler now..) different di, sensors, pipes , intercoolers, engine, loom, injectors...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:07 pm 
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id guess refitting a standard td04 exhaust housing (the wheel size didnt change so it will fit)would be better than the tt version but i cant be arsed with the td04 any longer personally

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Your practical experience is interesting Jason. I have no idea what to expect but my start point will be "nothing much" Anything I do get will be a bonus. I am not sure TT did anything on the wastegate other than re-bush it. They certainly did not port it , in fact they did not recommend it, unless someone would have made a specific request. I can ask them. Mossypossy had a sticking wastegate but I am sure I dont have that issue. Pumping up with a Mytivac immediately after a run would open the wastegate so I guess it is fine.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:31 am 
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well mine came back with a different sized arm on it welded on... i sent a brand new factory housing.

mine stuck again earlier (im assuming due to so much load on the actuator its no longer able to be consistantly controlled) only this time it stuck at 1.9 bar before it blew the hoses off the intercooler lol turbo was not happy about this and judging by the state of the pipework i guess mine wont be making it to 1k

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