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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:21 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Glos
Car Model: '91 T5'd 900S Aero, '92 Panda
I actually mounted my IAT today - on my car (which is later than yours, but may be similar?) there's a little blanking plate on the bottom of the inlet manifold, near where the TB mounts. I drilled and tapped (M10x1.25) a hole in that and boshed it in. Very discrete - I'll stick a picture up in my thread in a few.

Experience is weird isn't it. I'm sure everything becomes much further apart when you know where it is, as well. Strange...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Car Model: Dawes Clubman
I take it you took the inlet manifold off then? I wonder if you're referring to the EGR valve location? I've currently got a fairly thin home-made blanking plate over that - the EGR valve was flapping about causing a massive air leak when I picked up the car.

First time taking the turbo off I ended up having to spin the whole thing around to get the water return pipe off. None of that today.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:22 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo

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Location: Glos
Car Model: '91 T5'd 900S Aero, '92 Panda
Yeah, poked it through the EGR blanking plate. Mine had a pretty thick plate on it, so it was able to hold the thread. Might be worth a look?

Sounds like you've had a much easier ride with it this time around, which is never a bad thing!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Location: Bristol
Car Model: Dawes Clubman
Thooms wrote:
Yeah, poked it through the EGR blanking plate. Mine had a pretty thick plate on it, so it was able to hold the thread. Might be worth a look?

It's something I've thought about a few times - could easily fashion a thicker plate and put it in there. Now would be the time, with the car in bits and the cooling system drained.

I'm a bit wary of taking the manifold off though as it looks for all the world like it's part of the same casting as the head. I fear seized and snapped bolts and so on.

The only other concern is whether there's any technical reason for the location of the IAT sensor before the TB. I've searched around a bit and found other cars which (from the factory) have the IAT sensor on the manifold, and people suggesting such a location might be prone to heat soak. Nothing really conclusive either way!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:08 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo

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Location: Glos
Car Model: '91 T5'd 900S Aero, '92 Panda
I'd definitely fear that - avoid it if you can. It wasn't pretty when I took it off mine.

You can get it fairly easily if you lose the throttle body, no need to remove the manifold. I thought the same thing about the IAT after the throttle body - I would've though you'd want it in the same body of air as the MAP sensor, ideally. Hadn't really thought about heat soak though - but I imagine when you've got a lot of air flowing through it it'll be quite effectively cooled. The actual sensor is tiny and should respond pretty quickly to whatever the air temperature is, especially with a decent amount of air moving over it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Location: Bristol
Car Model: Dawes Clubman
Thooms, looking at your photo in the other thread, I think I'm going to try and mount the IAT sensor before the throttle body - I'd rather it was more exposed to the airflow and less surrounded by warm metal. I've been looking at thick-walled aluminium tubing (e.g. 3" OD, 3/8" wall) on eBay, prompted by remembering a tip I was given by a colleague about a small machine shop happy to take a sketch. I'm basically thinking of a tube coupler with a thicker middle section, a flat machined into one side and an appropriately threaded hole. I'd hoped to find something that could be adapted, but all the tube couplers I've found are 1.5-2mm wall thickness. Welding or brazing a nut onto a suitable tube would be yet another option.

I think I've also now looked at every 'universal' intercooler listed on eBay - not sure any of them are quite right! My main concern (see pics below) is that the non-turbo front bumper of my car means that there isn't much space in front of the radiator at the bottom. The grille and valance sweep backwards towards the crossmember, looking at -=FUBES=- install on 'Willard', the aero valance drops more vertically. The issue is both getting the hoses in and out (even after cutting off the towing eyes), and actually fitting the intercooler between the radiator and plastic lower grille.

I was thinking that a thinner (say 50mm) intercooler would help with fitment, but I can't find anything that looks right - they all seem to be 'wide' rather than 'tall'. Part of the problem is not knowing how much can actually go from the panels at the side of the radiator. I'd prefer to keep the wiper motors. Any suggestions very welcome!

Finally, it looks like the turbo I removed at the weekend has a cracked exhaust housing (see photo). Don't know if the sticky wastegate is related, and it also looks like a bit of oil is getting past the seals. Came from two stroke via eBay, in hindsight I should have inspected it more thoroughly when it arrived - thought it was just a sticky actuator. Oh well - a hopefully better replacement should be here soon.


Attachments:
File comment: Ignore the rust...
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turbocrac.jpg
turbocrac.jpg [ 187.72 KiB | Viewed 977 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:21 pm
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Location: Glos
Car Model: '91 T5'd 900S Aero, '92 Panda
Yeah - I'm not too sure about where it should go, really. At low throttle, you'll get a temperature drop across the throttle due to the engine pulling vacuum, and the air will then warm up again as it slowly move through the manifold - though at high load it should all be about the same (which may be why mine is a bad plan plan if it's heated by the manifold).

Ultimately, rather have the sensor too cold and be rich at low load than too hot / lean at high load. Hmm, might relocate mine too - only real benefit of having it there is that it looks nice :roll:

Machined flat on think walled tube sounds like the way to go, very professional.

Have you seen Jules's intercooler setup? I think he's running pretty solid power with a fairly compact but thick intercooler core.

I guess another option would be some style of air-to-water charge cooler?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:39 am 
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Location: Bristol
Car Model: Dawes Clubman
Thooms wrote:
Yeah - I'm not too sure about where it should go, really.

In the inlet piping before the TB seems like a safe bet as that's where it went originally! I think the EGR plate location is 'close but no cigar', maybe tapped direct into the manifold would be better (but would require removing it, which may or may not be a total pain).

Thooms wrote:
Machined flat on think walled tube sounds like the way to go, very professional.

No idea how much it's likely to cost yet, I need to knock up a sketch and talk to the guy.

Thooms wrote:
Have you seen Jules's intercooler setup? I think he's running pretty solid power with a fairly compact but thick intercooler core.

Yeah, I think that's the same one (280 x 300 x 76 mm) as on -=FUBES=- c900. Just not sure it's going to fit with my car's less spacious lower grille arrangement. Being narrow is in its favour though - more flexibility with getting the pipes in and out.

I'm looking at thinner - 65mm - intercoolers. The eBay suppliers list quite a range, but of course the one I'm most interested in (450 x 230 mm core) is out of stock or only available with offset ports. There's a smaller 450 x 175 mm version - that's about 1.65 times the area of the standard c900 unit. Probably a decent improvement, especially with being far better cooled. Well - I say that, but the 175mm tall cooler would be somewhat shielded by the bumper. Hmm.

When I figure out how to remove the upper grille without breaking all the clips, I think I'm going to pop the radiator back in, take off the bumper (2 bolts I believe) and fashion a cardboard 'fake intercooler' so I can see how it all looks. I didn't think this would all be such a faff!

Thooms wrote:
I guess another option would be some style of air-to-water charge cooler?

There are some kits out there (expensive) and some cheaper chinese units available on eBay for DIY. Not sure I'm keen on the complexity, and there seem to be as many people against as for them (possibly all mad drifting types though, looking at far more power). The 'barrel' type appeals in terms of neatness, I've seen that sort of setup used on MX-5s and similar before. Still probably looking at 3 times the cost of an air-to-air setup though.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:48 pm 
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nfo wrote:
When I figure out how to remove the upper grille without breaking all the clips, I think I'm going to pop the radiator back in, take off the bumper (2 bolts I believe) and fashion a cardboard 'fake intercooler' so I can see how it all looks.

Ta-daa! I didn't break all of the clips on the grille, and only one of the rusty clips that hold the 'SAAB' badge to it getting it apart :oops: .
Attachment:
IC_test.jpg
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That's the 450x175x65 version. The good news is that on the basis of my cardboard mock-up - which if anything is slightly oversized - it fits. Just. The bad news is that most of the frontal area will be blocked by the bumper, and that 2.5" inlet/outlet piping looks like a very tight squeeze, if not impossible. Taller and thinner with 2" pipework would be more like it.

I've found a few intercooler kits supposedly made for the 'B5' generation of VW Passat, which claim to have a 450 x 235 x 45mm core with 2" inlets and outlets. This sounds like it could work - I'd like just the intercooler on its own though, as the kits are significantly more expensive than the universal jobs and come with a load of probably not-too-useful tubing.

Much like this - worth the risk of buying from China? Might just go for it, as I'm pretty fed up of looking at intercoolers.


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radspace_front.jpg
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towhook.jpg
towhook.jpg [ 232.59 KiB | Viewed 944 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Posts: 1416
Location: Wincanton
Car Model: '87 T16 & T5'd C900 saloon
This is my old T16s. I fitted a 9000 intercooler to it and that was my plan for Erec until I ran out of time :-( It would mean youd have to chop off the towing eyes but with your car being only 27 years old you really dont need them :-P
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72766&hilit=saab+900+intercooler

About 2/3 down the page. Oh this really isnt helping my Saab withdrawal issues :-(

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:11 pm 
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Location: Bristol
Car Model: Dawes Clubman
StuntmanAd wrote:
This is my old T16s. I fitted a 9000 intercooler to it and that was my plan for Erec until I ran out of time :-( It would mean youd have to chop off the towing eyes but with your car being only 27 years old you really dont need them :-P
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72766&hilit=saab+900+intercooler

About 2/3 down the page. Oh this really isnt helping my Saab withdrawal issues :-(

Did you know that your old T16s is on Car and Classic for a grand at the moment?

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C493304

I've got a Volvo 760 intercooler in the garage, but I don't think that either that or the 9000 IC will fit Erec - don't mind losing the towing eyes but the rest of the bumper gets in the way! I've ordered the Chinese Passat IC - hopefully it'll arrive before too long and not be a load of tosh.

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:27 pm
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Location: Wincanton
Car Model: '87 T16 & T5'd C900 saloon
Enquired!

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Car Model: Dawes Clubman
StuntmanAd wrote:
Enquired!

:)

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:44 am 
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Car Model: Dawes Clubman
Behold, the eBay Passat intercooler (shipped direct from China in record time):
Attachment:
IC.jpg
IC.jpg [ 374.72 KiB | Viewed 874 times ]

Note also the third Garrett T3 I now own. Once this one's on the car and hopefully working, I'm formulating a plan involving the other two and a rebuild kit.

If the weather stops being horrid for an hour or two over the weekend, EREC might lose his tow hooks...

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Last edited by nfo on Mon May 12, 2014 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Car Model: c900i
So, this is going to have three turbos? Cool...

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:15 pm 
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nicebiscuit wrote:
So, this is going to have three turbos? Cool...

:D

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:02 pm 
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So instead of doing anything useful to the car lately (except making a big scary list of what needs fixing), I've let myself get distracted by the challenge of disassembling turbo #2 (S/H unit from Two Stroke, with sticking wastegate). Most of the challenge has been in getting the exhaust housing off - as it was cracked anyway it ended up an angle grinder and hacksaw job to remove the bolts. Well, those that didn't just shear off, or the one that came out cleanly. And then a lot of WD-40 and mallet action to get the housing off.
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Not pretty, eh? Compared to the (hopefully OK) one I've got to fit, the turbine and housing are a very different colour. The 'new' one is black with soot, this one is more of a 'biscuit' colour.
Attachment:
turbo_crud.jpg
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Based on this experience, getting turbo #1 (smokes, even rustier) apart isn't going to be much fun. Soak the whole thing in a bucket of penetrating fluid? Go for broke and hope the studs can be removed? Find a better exhaust housing? Concentrate on getting the car back together and running instead? ;)
Attachment:
turbo_crack_again.jpg
turbo_crack_again.jpg [ 156.56 KiB | Viewed 829 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:42 pm 
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I managed to get a fair amount done this weekend - nothing spectacular but steady progress. Not running again yet, but closer :)

Various bits cleaned up and somewhat reassembled ready to go back on.
Attachment:
IMG_20140517_201933.jpg
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Water pump, alternator and new belts on. Heater matrix, heater ducts and cabin fan (fingers crossed I've solved the squeak) went back in after this.
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IMG_20140518_130537.jpg
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Battery cable routing - look OK? I remember the first time I gazed (in some horror) upon this mass of pipes and wires - seems quite familiar now :)
Attachment:
IMG_20140518_174138.jpg
IMG_20140518_174138.jpg [ 212.32 KiB | Viewed 784 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:59 pm 
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So it turns out that my replacement turbo also has a sticking wastegate (I think that explains how short the actuator rod was set - to overcome the sticking). I've got - between 3 turbos - one good wastegate. Unfortunately multiple very sad-looking nuts stand between me and swapping it over.

This is the 'new' turbo. The top three came off fine, the bottom two nuts and studs look pretty terrible. The housing on this one seems OK, so I'd really like to get it apart cleanly. Currently anointing frequently with Plus-Gas, not sure what I'm going to do if that doesn't work. Very carefully saw the nuts perhaps. The one with the good wastegate has a cracked housing, so I'm not going to be too precious about getting it apart by means of angle grinder.
Attachment:
IMG_20140519_080715.png
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Finally, on the subject of saws and grinders - look, no tow-hooks. And hopefully enough space to squeeze some 2" pipes behind the flat-front lower grille.
Attachment:
IMG_20140519_134355.jpg
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Rain, work, weddings and general non-car-related 'life' are due to get in the way of further progress - really should have SORN'd the car instead of re-taxing it this month, thought it would be back on the road sooner. At least it's an incentive to make progress!

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:23 am 
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Getting there...slowly.

Turbo back on, got the duff wastegate off with plenty of plus-gas, but had to grind the nuts/studs off the working one to swap them over. Exhaust housing's cracked on the original turbo, so I figure it's scrap anyway. Got the APC gauge fitted too, so there's not much stopping me putting the dash back together. May yet run in May!
Attachment:
IMG_20140521_181835.jpg
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I picked up the correct turbo radiator fan for 99p (as opposed to the original, with one of the support arms removed), and a brand new Bosch S4 014 battery for £30 (about an inch shorter than the current Halfords 072, same dimensions otherwise), so that's another couple of minor improvements known only to myself ;) Apart from the dimensions and colour, the plastic cases of the Halfords and Bosch batteries are virtually identical.
Attachment:
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Question - on 'proper' T5 cars, is there a plug/bung where the distributor mounts, or is the head/cam cover just blanked in the casting? All the distributor's doing here is plugging up that hole.
Attachment:
IMG_20140526_175618.jpg
IMG_20140526_175618.jpg [ 226.44 KiB | Viewed 740 times ]

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