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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Is it possible to fit DI APC from a 9000 to a c900? Has anybody done it? I was thinking along the lines of kit from a 1990 2.0 carlsson.

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Last edited by David! on Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:01 pm 
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Location: South Coast - Between a rock and a hard place
Anything is possible but i think fitting DI/APC is a headache at best..
Eric Van Speld fitted DI to his C900 and he had a few headaches with it but in the end i think he got there.
Now iirc he has Trionic 5 or 7?? cant remember which.
Tbh though - if you were going to go to all the trouble of fitting DI or DI/APC then you might as well go for Megasquirt if your that way inclined - ask Sam (Nuts) as he has just finished his instal and its up and running.
Obviously the beauty of this is it will data log and is fully mapable - he has a wideband lambda and can map on the fly - cost = around £150 for mapped spark and fuelling - not much comes close :wink:

Pete.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:28 pm 
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I think, but maybe totaly wrong, that there is a walkthrough of such procedure on http://www.900aero.com
:?:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:01 pm 
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The 900Aero.com procedure is for the separate DI controller as fitted to the very first year of DI 9000, the 1988 CD. It is this system that Eric has fitted to his car. From 1989, I believe, the two functions were combined but I have not heard of anyone fitting that to a C900. You'd have to re-invent a lot of the wiring and fit new sensors.

It's certainly possible, but then it's also possible to fit a V8 and rear-wheel-drive to a C900...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:11 pm 
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Yes they were combined in 89 onward cars. I have an ECU for both DI/APC and engine management from a 90 carly. I was thinking of using those. The ECU I have is part number 137 007 407. According to the Saab sevice manual 2:6 DI-APC system M1988-93 it was rated as a tuning control module 204 bhp :D

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The Fifth Law of Pipes: "The outside diameter must exceed the inside
diameter; otherwise the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.''

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:14 pm 
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David! wrote:
and engine management

By that you mean the fuel injection ECU?

Anyway, give it a go and write it up for the rest of us. While it would be a major job, it shouldn't be impossible. I could think of easier ways to get 204hp from a C900, though. But a cool conversion to impress your fellow geeks :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:24 pm 
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Yes FI ECU

I know there are easy ways to get more BHP but I have a dislike for mechanical devices used in electronic systems.

If you wash an engine with a distributor it will not start afterwards :evil: That leaves it open to moisture on a wet day. I have never had such problems with a DI equipped car.

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The Fifth Law of Pipes: "The outside diameter must exceed the inside
diameter; otherwise the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.''

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:30 pm 
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David! wrote:
I have a dislike for mechanical devices used in electronic systems.

What about electronic devices used in mechanical systems? We could get into a circular argument here :wink:

David! wrote:
I have never had such problems with a DI equipped car.

True, but I've had a few problems with a DI-equipped car that I've never had with one equipped with a distributor. And some of those were pretty expensive :roll:

Mind you, I've never had ignition problems caused through simply washing a car and never felt the need to wash an engine - not that I would dare on a 9000 as water is known to play havoc with the connectors.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:09 pm 
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On the grounds that Saab moved over to DI/APC for a few years I had to go for it!

Here are the pictures of it installed followed by a rough guide on how to and the parts required…

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Parts Required to convert a 1998 C900 turbo to DI/APC. (Bosch LH 2.2)

Article : Sensor crank position
Part No : 7482540
Order Quantity : 1
900i with EZK ignition or 9000 with DI

Article : Oil pump housing
Part No : 7586993
Order Quantity : 1
900i with EZK ignition or 9000 with DI


Article : Pulley
Part No : 7519390
Usage : NLS-USE 9107665
Order Quantity : 1
900i with EZK ignition only

Article : Aperture disc
Part No : 9118001
Usage : (7581713, 9114554), NLS
Order Quantity : 1
9000 B202 only with Direct Ignition (turbo 88 to 92)


Article : Sensor MAP sensor
Part No : 7538697
Order Quantity : 1
9000 B202 only with Direct Ignition (turbo 88 to 92)


Article : Knock sensor Part No : 7585755
Usage : DI
Order Quantity : 1
9000 B202 only with Direct Ignition (turbo 88 to 92)


Article : Boost pressure control valve
Part No : 7485576
Order Quantity : 1
Any turbo Saab with DI/APC or Trionic 5


Article : Electronic unit. DI/APC control unit
Part No : 7484272
Usage : 1989, NLS-USE 8826521
Without catalytic converter.
Order Quantity : 1
9000 89 to 92 B202 turbo

Article : Ignition cassettePart No : 7485808
Usage : (7584204), NLS-USE 9178955, 9321787
Order Quantity : 1
Use NGK BCPR7ES11 Spark Plugs


You will also need to get a connector for each sensors and the plug for the DI/APC ECU and DI cassette with ideally a foot or so of cable. The Knock sensor wire with a connector can be taken out of the existing APC ECU plug.(it is coaxial cable so do not cut it) Note which plugs are which from the sensors as the wire colours will help when making up the new loom.

1] Remove the old belt pulley and oil pump cover.

2] Change the oil pump cover so that you can mount the crank position sensor.

3] Re drill the shutter wheel so that it will mount to the pulley wheel. Bolt it onto the pulley using thread lock.

4] Bolt on the crank position sensor using thread lock. Route the cable under the inlet manifold side of the engine. (Electrically quiet area)

5] Mount the new pulley to the end of the crank.

6] Make up the new loom following the diagram. SOLDER ALL THE JOINTS DO NOT USE CRIMPS. If the sensor plugs came from the same car as the DI/APC ECU plug then the wire colours will match. Don’t forget to put the wires through the plug cover. Route the non sensor wires out of the plug noting which colour goes to which pin. They are all different bar the whites of which there are 2. If your plug has extra wires, other than those shown, snip them off short and insulate them. (All the wires can be 0.75 standard wire except the green/red coming out of the DI cassette. This is thicker and will need 2 lengths in parallel or some thicker wire.)

7] Extend the wires that go to the LH 2.2 ECU and the fuel pump relay. Route them over the left wheel arch past the main fuse box and into the car using the existing grommet located under and behind the fuse box.

8] Remove the lower dash panel. Feed the new loom through the dash over to the LH 2.2 ECU located in the driver’s side foot well. Cable tie the new loom in place.

9] Disconnect the battery.

10] Make the connections to the LH 2.2 ECU and to the old APC / ignition amplifier plugs.

11] Mount the sensors under the bonnet in convenient locations where the pipe work and or wires will reach. Cable tie the wires where possible to the existing loom. The knock sensor replaces the existing one but try to keep the wire as far away from the alternator and starter wires as possible. On the APC solenoid ensure the pipes are the correct way round. Connect all the sensors to the new loom.

12] Change the spark plugs for NGK BCPR7ES11 and mount the DI Cassette .

12a] Disconnect the remaining plugs to the old items and tie them back out of the way. (Coil, solenoid valve, distributor, ignition amplifier, APC box if still plugged in.)

14] Do not forget to ground the 2 black wires coming from the DI Cassette!

15] Start the engine!

16] Replace the lower dash panel and any other bits you removed.

Image

Image

Image

The diagrams and locations are taken from the Saab DI/APC book for a 9000

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The Fifth Law of Pipes: "The outside diameter must exceed the inside
diameter; otherwise the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.''

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:35 am 
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Excellent work, David! Thanks for that! 8)
Maybe something for my T16S in the future...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:39 am 
Nice work old chap. 8)

I'm sure Eric will have something to say about this but I seem to remember (maybe I'm wrong :? ) he decided not to go back round brunters again on account of his overfueling (popping and fire out of the tail-pipe) I don't know if he changed his ECU or just fitted the DI part of a DI+APC loom. I seem to remember him saying it was tronic of some description. 8)

What I think would be difficult is fitting the system where the shutter-wheel becomes part of the crank and the crank position sensor is drilled through the block to get crank position. I don't think that crank will fit a c900 block so any system based on that crank sensor setup most probably could not be used on a c900. If Eric is using tronic it will be from a car which uses the same crank position technology as on this setup.

Also I think Eric has his ECU re-mapped so I rather fancy pulling all the components from the 9000 Carlsson setup as David is suggesting. That sounds like it would work without a hitch. (provided you've got the AMM bit sorted)

Edit: Eric is running something like 280bhp though - so horses for courses


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:11 am 
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Eric/Saabine has a modified T7 (9-5) head by Sweedspeed Racing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:25 am 
Yes he has got a modified head on there but the ignition system is a transplant from a later car. (with obviously all the tweaks to make it work on the 900) All I'm saying is they (saab) changed to a different crank-position system where the sensor is located inside the engine and I think that happened at the same time (or after) they changed to the new block. So Eric's version of tronic / DI probably isn't any later than the latest old DI :?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:37 am 
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Trionic is fitted to the B204,B234 and later engines. As said it uses a crank sensor fitted to the block so it is not an easy option to fit it to the B202 series engines. The first version is trionic 5 followed by trionic 7 fitted to later cars. T7 is easy to spot as it uses a black DI cassette. I do have a T5 ECU and loom with all the sensors but decided against fitting it as Saab never fitted it to the B202. What I was looking for was a simple bolt on option that is known to work well with the engine and for which spare parts are available second hand.

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The Fifth Law of Pipes: "The outside diameter must exceed the inside
diameter; otherwise the hole will be on the outside of the pipe.''

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:58 am 
yes - if you were going to fit something which would need mapping then there wouldn't have been any point in going for the Saab stuff. Might as well have gone for Megasquirt.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:30 am 
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Ah, just found this thread. :)

Saabine still runs the '88 DI system (originally used and remapped for a c900 racing car; I don't think Beek Auto Racing had to do much, if anything, in the way of remapping on my car, when on the rollers) in additon to non-lambda '85 LH 2.2 system, remapped on the rollers with 9000 2.3 T injectors (Bosch 0 280 155 009) and Trent Saab/FSE RRFPR (had no problems with it so we decided to retain it when mapping on the rollers). Boost control is via Blitz SBC i-DIII.

It's the cylinder head that's off a T7 car. :)

The reason I didn't go back on the track (apart from the logged runs been over and done with in the morning, so there little point anyways) wasn't overfueling, but rather the opposite condition - fuel starvation in left hand corners when the tank is less than 1/2-2/3 full. We have a fix, but it's not implemented yet.

The popping and spitting flames on the overrun is a feature, not a fault. :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:53 pm 
I've got a couple of updates for this old thread.

If you want tronic on a c900 all you do is take the hamster wheel from inside the block and bolt it onto the back of the crank pulley. Then the trigger wheel and sensor operate outside the block instead of inside. One of our Scandinavian chums did it like this and posted the pictures on his website.

The other update I have is that I've just completed a DI/APC install on my Saab 99. I used the DI/APC pin-out from above to help me connect some of the wires but you can't complete an install unless you get some more information from other sources.

For the moment I'm really only bouncing this thread as I've not finished collecting and scanning all of the necessary wiring diagrams. Hopefully, by the end of the week, I'll be ready to post another update including all the info and some photos of my install.

Thanks to David for making a start though. I couldn't have completed the conversion without the info posted earlier in this thread. It was essential reading and I printed out some of the important bis and took them to the engine-bay to help me fit the kit.

Will post another update soon.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:22 pm 
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What a blast from the past!

*!Removed for GDPR!* wrote:
If you want tronic on a c900

Now that sounds very interesting indeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:04 pm 
Do you want me to bodge an install on your minty c900? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:36 pm 
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*!Removed for GDPR!* wrote:
Do you want me to bodge an install on your minty c900? :wink:

If anyone's going to bodge Trionic onto my 900, it'll be me :lol:


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