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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 pm
Posts: 682
That valve does look big! Especially next to the standard exhaust valve.
Are you hoping to get bigger exhaust valves in as well? Looks like a limiting factor will be when the valve seats clash.

Can't remember what size your throttle bodies were, will you have to go up a size to get the most out of this engine?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:30 am 
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Saab Nut
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:39 pm
Posts: 1503
Location: Auchindoun, Moray, North east Scotland
Car Models: Saab 99 T16 project
Very good read so far, thanks for sharing. Will this be built into the same car?

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1974 99EMS
1972 4dr 99
1970 2dr 99
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:46 am 
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UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
99 Pete wrote:
That valve does look big! Especially next to the standard exhaust valve.
Are you hoping to get bigger exhaust valves in as well? Looks like a limiting factor will be when the valve seats clash.

Can't remember what size your throttle bodies were, will you have to go up a size to get the most out of this engine?


Bigger exhaust valves are needed with the 46mm inlets, standard size exhaust valves are enough for the 44mm inlets. There is room for them.

The Jenveys are 45mm, these will be OK for this engine also, they are still within range.

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
ianlaw wrote:
Very good read so far, thanks for sharing. Will this be built into the same car?


Yes, its going into the same car.

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:55 am 
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Put a SOC in it!
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Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:48 pm
Posts: 21939
Location: Fliptop Towers, Trumptonshire
Car Models: One or two...
I recall many, many moons ago, Dave Walker writing in his Triple C column about getting Pintos to similar power levels. It was around the time he started out on ECU mapping and Emerald really took off. Might be worth hunting them out, although clearly some aspects have moved on significantly since then. Not least the sophistication of management systems to control timing and fuelling.

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9-5 Aero ~600Nm FB3
Sonett III
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:06 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Fliptop wrote:
I recall many, many moons ago, Dave Walker writing in his Triple C column about getting Pintos to similar power levels. It was around the time he started out on ECU mapping and Emerald really took off. Might be worth hunting them out, although clearly some aspects have moved on significantly since then. Not least the sophistication of management systems to control timing and fuelling.


It is currently running a DTAS40 ECU, perfect for this set up.

Although pinto type valves can be used on the Saab head, they have to be modified. The port configuration on the Pinto is quite different to the Saab.

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:25 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
If I do go with the 2.5 block, the exhaust manifold may need to be altered. There are larger manifolds available.

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:13 am 
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Full Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:14 pm
Posts: 972
Location: N Yorks
Car Models: 9-5 Aero Estates, 9-5 2.2 TiD estate, 9-5 2.0 Saloon, 9000 Aero
Fliptop wrote:
..... although clearly some aspects have moved on significantly since then. Not least the sophistication of management systems to control timing and fuelling.


Indeed, I had an ECU swap done one one of my cars, went I think from 8 bit to 32 bit granularity, no mechanical changes. Same guy doing the custom map on rollers

Peak power up 10%, fuel consumption improved 10%


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:57 pm 
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UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
If anyone is interested in having one of these cylinder heads for their 99 or 900, now would be a good time to consider it. Contact by PM please.

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:12 am 
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UKS Addict
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 11:18 pm
Posts: 4364
Location: REMAINING UNFAITHFUL TO FACTORY STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS SINCE 1988
Car Models: OLD SAABS,VOLVOS&VW...
NOT WANTING TO 'DEVIATE' TOO MUCH..... 8) :roll:

BUT,REFERENCE TO TALKING ABOUT 'VALVE SIZES,? AND WHAT CAN,OR CANNOT BE ACHIEVED WITH 8 VALVE ENGINES?
AS 'DAVE 'SAYS,BIGGER,IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER.,..'

I ALWAYS FIND 'EVIDENCE',OF 'REAL WORLD' OLD-SKOOL TUNING,RATHER INTRUIGING....
SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO SIT,TALK,& DAYDREAM ?.......YAK,ABOUT 'VIRTUAL BHP&TORQUE' BUT NEVER ,ACTUALLY REALISE THAIR 'DREAMS' ? THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE IN THE 'REAL WORLD',ABOUT THOSE THAT 'TALK',AND THOSE THAT ACTUALLY 'MAKE IT HAPPEN' :wink:

IN EARLIER YEARS,I HAD A NUMBER OF 'GTI' SCIROCCOS ?

SO ALONG,WITH BUILDING THE 'CLARION 99 TURBO'....(AND EVERYTHING ELSE)I HAD ALWAYS WANTED A 'GOLF GTI'? BUT IT MUST BE 8 VALVE,BECAUSE I AM OLD SKOOL.
OF COURSE,ANYTHING I OWN,INEVITABLY BECOMES,RATHER 'HELL BENT' ON,BECOMING COMPETITIVE IN CLUBMAN 'MOTORSPORT'......

SO,HERE IS A LITTLE 'DEVIATION',TO THE INFAMOUS 'SERIES' OF MK1,MK2 &MK3 GOLF GTI ENGINES...

JUST A LITTLE MORE READING OF 'INTEREST' IF YOU WOULD...?

BUILDING 'HILLCLIMB' ENGINES......

http://www.jmrclubsport.com/customercars

THE GUY,THAT RUNS THIS WEBSITE IS CALLED 'JASON MOYLE'.HE HAS A LOT OF EXPEREINCE,WITH THE 'TUNING&BUILDING' OF VW GOLF ENGINES?
I SPENT A GOOD WHILE TALKING TO HIM,ONE MORNING? ABOUT THE BENEFITS? AND /OR DRAWBACKS OF GOING,FROM THE STANDARD 'GOLF GTI' HEAD DESIGN(REAR FACING BULKHEAD, INLET ABOVE EXHAUST MANIFOLDS) TO THE LATER 'CROSSFLOW' ENGINE,I HAVE ACQUIRED IN THE PICTURE BELOW...ON 'BIKE' THROTTLE BODIES...?

AS USUAL,EVERYTHING,DEPENDS,ON EVERYTHING ELSE? BUT HE DID URGE ME,NOT TO DISCOUNT THE 'EARLIER' GOLF GTI' SET-UP,AS VERY GOOD RESULTS CAN STILL BE ACHIEVED? IN COMPARISON,TO THE LATER 'CROSSFLOW' DESIGNED HEAD..
I HAVE BOTH TYPES OF ENGINE SAT HERE,WITH IDENTICAL FAST-ROAD CAMS......

AS USUAL,THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT...BUT THAT PROJECT,IS ON THE 'BACK BURNER' RIGHT NOW,UNDER CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES? ALTHOUGH I DID MANAGE TO GET THE '2.0L GOLF GTI-STANDARD SPEC' UP TO THE ROLLING ROAD(THE SAME ONE,THAT DAVE AND I HAVE USED FOR MANY YEARS)TO GET A BALLPARK FIGURE,'BEFORE' I START 'MODIFYING'? AT THE END OF LAST YEAR...

8 VALVE 'STANDARD' SPECS VW GOLF GTI PRODUCTION ENGINES....WERE(ALLEGEDLY) AS FOLLOWS:

MK1 GOLF 1.6&1.8 110 BHP&112 BHP
MK2 GOLF 1.8 112 BHP
MK3 GOLF 2.0 115 BHP

AS WE CAN SEE,FROM THE 'ROLLING ROAD' GRAPH? ACHIEVING THE NOMINATED 123.5 BHP,IN STANDRAD SPEC. DOES 'NOT' MEAN,I HAVE ACQUIRED MAGICAL 7.5 BHP,FROM 'NOWHERE' :roll:

AMBIENT TEMPERATURE THAT EARLY SATURDAY MORNING WAS JUST 1 DEGREE CELSIUS,ALONG WITH USING HIGHER OCTANE FUEL...AND WE HAVE TO REMEBER,THAT A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF 'ERROR',MAY CREEP IN FROM VARYING 'ROLLING ROAD' CLAIMED OUTPUTS,BETWEEN CALIBRATIONS ETC......

BUT WE MUST ALWAYS HAVE A 'BASE' FIGURE TO WORK FROM,BEFORE WE GO 'MACHINING HEADS ETC',OR THE 'DATA' ALL BECOMES TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
FROM THE 'ROLLING ROAD',I CAN ASSESS THAT THE 2.0L 8V ENGINE IN THE GOLF,AT THE MOMENT,IS IN FINE FETTLE,AND 'NOT' BURNING ANY OIL,OR HAVE ANY WORN VALVE GUIDES ETC...AS I WAS STOOD,OBSERVING,AS THE 'POWER RUNS' TOOK PLACE...AND. IT HAS ONLY COVERED 62,000 'CAREFUL' MILES....SO FAR!!





BACK TO SAABS,HOWEVER 'DAVE' AND I,ARE HOPING TO CO-ALLOBORATE SOMEWHAT,REGARDS THE 2.3-2.5 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS,FOR A 'SAAB' BOTTOM END...BUT,ONE FOR N/A 8V AND ONE FOR 'TURBO 16V' APPLICATION.

THIS INVOLVES TRAVELLING TO SWEDEN,QUITE FREQUENTLY. OR THEM,TRAVELLING HERE... SO,THIS MIGHT TAKE A LITTLE MORE TIME,RIGHT NOW.... :wall:


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NEVER,SUFFER FROM INSANITY...............

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:03 pm 
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UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
A bespoke plate has been made for the 8v Saab head, for this type of development work it's essential. The head will be on and off the flow bench many times and its imperative it goes back in the same position every time in order to achieve consistent, accurate results.
Image

The first base line flow figures, this is how it left the factory, totally standard.
Image

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:46 pm 
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UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
A flow bench will only tell you what the head is flowing, it won't tell you what to do to make it flow any better, thats were experience and knowledge comes in and usually investment.

Valve seat cutting has come a long way since the introduction on the infernal combustion engine, along with everything else, to some degree. The usual seat cutting offered at your local recon engine machine shop is usually fine for your standard road going engine, high performance cylinderheads on the other hand, need more attention especially around the valve seat area, seat width and angles, along with top and bottom angle cuts are all taken into consideration depending upon the type of head etc.

The current head on Turbo Killer had all of its angles cut in seperate machining operations on a Bridgeport milling machine with custom pilots, all cut at a very low rpm. The new head will have the seats cut on a Serdi 4 using performance cutters,..the old addage apply's again.....how fast do you want to go? How much money have you got?
Below is just a selection of 'performance' Serdi seat cutting profiles.
Image

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900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:55 pm 
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UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Near Liverpool
Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Some light relief :)

Image

Tooling removed.
Image

_________________
900i '87
900T '81
99 '83 TurboKiller
99 EMS '77
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 red
Lancer EVO 6 TME '00 black


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