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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Car Models: Saab 900 and 99
Turbo Killer…The Sequel.
There are a several reasons I suppose why I’m doing this, because I can, its not conventional, how much power can these heads potentially deliver, it interests me.
Turbo Killer came about because I wanted a Saab 99 to be quicker than a standard 99 turbo, this was achieved after much trial and error, although to be fair, there wasn’t much error, more development and experiencing the limitations of various fuel/air deliveries and why they didn’t work. It turned out so well we entered into 16v turbo territory with regards bhp.
I asked my good friend Dave Baker of Puma Race Engines to help with its development, if you’ve read the ‘Turbo Killer’ thread despite him having no interest in Saab’s he really got into the whole thing around this project and to quote him….
‘’After 20 years of doing this for a living I didn't think there was much about engines that could still surprise me but every time this Saab goes to the rollers it beats the expectations, I'd had for it. I'm frankly astonished that it's holding on to its peak power for such an extraordinarily extended rev range. I've seen engines doing this when there's something wrong with the exhaust design and there's no torque being produced so they just keep revving to try and produce the power but that's not the case here. At 73 ft lbs per litre it's putting out gobs of torque for what's essentially a fairly mild cam. It has plenty of low-down grunt, strong mid-range torque and a top end that apparently just refuses to die. The only downside is that having taken it as far as the uprated valve springs will let us we still don't actually know where the power really starts dropping off which means it wants to rev even higher than 7600. My computer simulation program says it needs to go to at least 8000 rpm for best acceleration. That means it has a useable power curve running from 2500 rpm to 8000 plus rpm which is almost unheard of’’.

Some reading can be had over on PistonHeads with conversations between Dave and his old friend David Vizard, https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1096171

Dave Baker has long since retired from doing any engine work, so I have had to look further afield, I got to hear about a guy in Northern Ireland, long story short, basically he has most of Dave’s old customers, a testimony in itself.
He agreed to flow a head for one of my Evo 6 Tommi Mak’s about 2 years ago, it took him a while, but he is really busy working on full competition engines and I did agree for him to work on it between other jobs etc, when I got the head back from him, his final words were, ‘throw some boost at it and it’ll fly’ he wasn’t wrong, almost maxed out the standard injectors, Evo 9 injectors and Evo 9 80 series turbo later and we are at 400/400 and this is on standard airbox and cam, plus a decent exhaust, open the bonnet and it all looks standard, it now needs an uprated Evo 9 clutch and that should do it.

Back to the 8v Saab H series head…. What do I want from this build? More power obviously, considering we are at 175bhp and 150ft/lbs of torque and a very flexible engine revving out to 8300rpm on a standard heavy bottom end. I am prepared to sacrifice some low-down tractability and with this next level of tune its inevitable.
The initial head valuation was not good, I would love to see 200bhp, but 190bhp is maybe more realistic, only development time on the flow bench will bear out if the required flow for this kind of power can be reached. There is a large drop from the seat to the floor of the port, this is not ideal starting point, each port is different and waterways are quite close, plus the exhaust port is abysmal. The last comment heard was to the tune of….’no wonder they threw a turbo on it!’ The large drop from seat to port floor can create a vortex, flowbench work is needed to get round this.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:30 pm 
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You are indeed fortunate having Dave Baker as a good friend.

I miss his website no longer being up, it was such a source of top quality engine information, many was the time my various searches ended up learning from with his knowledge. Please tell him.....

Good luck with your new project, sound more like a wild cam Pug 106 engine or Honda CVH with those rev limits :)


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:09 am 
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carrera wrote:
You are indeed fortunate having Dave Baker as a good friend.

I miss his website no longer being up, it was such a source of top quality engine information, many was the time my various searches ended up learning from with his knowledge. Please tell him.....

Good luck with your new project, sound more like a wild cam Pug 106 engine or Honda CVH with those rev limits :)


Dave Baker is also fortunate having me as a good friend :lol:

His was website was really good, the last update was probably his page on exhaust sizing, which came about because of Turbo Killer.
The website is still there.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:53 am 
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I see there is still a website there....... but though there is still some good stuff there, if you go digging, the old website was much better IMHO, though not as mobile / media friendly.

Some of the old stuff is still there through the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20060619212700/http://pumaracing.co.uk/default.htm but it doesn't seem to be on the new website, or if it is it is not as easy to find.

I think it was his website that gave decent illustrations of how to assess what a compression test result should look like for varying compression ratios, which as really usefull for getting insight into what an engine was doing when there are no valid specs, and for getting a better appreciation of a IC engine efficiencies.

Dave's website was one of the sources I used when I had to design some custom pistons for an engine because a numpty engineer planed the block. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:22 am 
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carrera wrote:
I see there is still a website there....... but though there is still some good stuff there, if you go digging, the old website was much better IMHO, though not as mobile / media friendly.

Some of the old stuff is still there through the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20060619212700/http://pumaracing.co.uk/default.htm but it doesn't seem to be on the new website, or if it is it is not as easy to find.

I think it was his website that gave decent illustrations of how to assess what a compression test result should look like for varying compression ratios, which as really usefull for getting insight into what an engine was doing when there are no valid specs, and for getting a better appreciation of a IC engine efficiencies.

Dave's website was one of the sources I used when I had to design some custom pistons for an engine because a numpty engineer planed the block. :roll:


I don't think his site had many, if any, illustrations and it certainly had no photo's, this was the last update for the site https://web.archive.org/web/20120217154 ... ing.co.uk/

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:49 am 
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Thanks for that :)

When I said illustrations I meant with words not pictures, that was one of the great things about his site.

So now I have the ability to reference not only the comnpression ratio maths, but also the top speed calculator.

I used that page to beuild my own top speed spereadsheet, and calibrated it against some known vehicles I own. It works ! I also used it to evaluate whether I need to change gearbox before a race at Spa as I was worried about running out of gearing going up the Kemmel Straight.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 8:38 am 
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Excellent stuff as usual Dave.

What I find reassuring is that your still prepared to put time, money and effort into modifying an old Saab when you've got an Evo with more than twice the power to play with!

Be interesting to see if you can improve on the torque figure much or if you have to rely mostly on shifting the existing torque up the rev range to achieve the power you are looking for. Will you be using a cam from the existing Catcams range of something bespoke? Comparisons with the Ford Pinto engine are interesting (as a 2 valve SOHC engine) and I think these needed pretty radical tuning to get around 200 bhp.

There's also some interesting discussions on Pistonheads regarding maximum torque per litre for N/A engines and your engine is well up there for a 2 valve per cyl. road engine. I think the only other 2 valve engines that can exceed these sort of figures by any margin are types with inclined valves (Porsche, BMW etc).

Are you really using standard crank, rods and pistons at 8000 rpm?


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 12:11 pm 
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99 Pete wrote:
Excellent stuff as usual Dave.

What I find reassuring is that your still prepared to put time, money and effort into modifying an old Saab when you've got an Evo with more than twice the power to play with!

Be interesting to see if you can improve on the torque figure much or if you have to rely mostly on shifting the existing torque up the rev range to achieve the power you are looking for. Will you be using a cam from the existing Catcams range of something bespoke? Comparisons with the Ford Pinto engine are interesting (as a 2 valve SOHC engine) and I think these needed pretty radical tuning to get around 200 bhp.

There's also some interesting discussions on Pistonheads regarding maximum torque per litre for N/A engines and your engine is well up there for a 2 valve per cyl. road engine. I think the only other 2 valve engines that can exceed these sort of figures by any margin are types with inclined valves (Porsche, BMW etc).

Are you really using standard crank, rods and pistons at 8000 rpm?


The Evo is an incredible car and I don't say that lightly, 20 years old and still quicker and more agile than most of the modern 'sporty' cars being offered today. The 99 interests me from many angles, Saabs approach to its design and their reluctance to follow so called conventional routes and with limited funds is a testament in itself.

I doubt if the torque will be increased, especially at this capacity, its already in 2 valve race engine territory, although if I took it to the 'right' dyno it could be improved :roll: Porsche head design is pretty much spot on out of the box.

Yes, the engine in Turbo Killer is a standard bottom end. The crank is good for 10k rpm, rods and pistons are probably OK too, but they are ridiculously heavy. I am still waiting for the piston ring lands to start failing, I carry out regular compression tests and so far so good, standard pistons do not like sustained high rpm's and the lands are usually the first to start getting worn.
I have two choices of bottom end for this new head, H series block with 91mm forged rods/pistons or 2.1 block bored out to 94mm (2.5) with forged rods/pistons, its yet to be decided which route to take, either way it will be a much lighter bottom end.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 8:47 pm 
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For heads n/a in particular check out A L developments in Leeds, also on facebook if you got that.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:17 pm 
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If you are looking for recommendations then Dave at http://www.performanceunlimited.co.uk/

Component sourcing, digitising, CNC machining and flow bench

Amongst other things he did head work on a modified 944T for me


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 6:26 am 
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Thank you for the recommendations, I already have the services of a race/rally engine builder. Like Dave Baker, he is someone else who doesn't advertise.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 6:28 am 
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nemesismoo wrote:
For heads n/a in particular check out A L developments in Leeds, also on facebook if you got that.


Thanks.

Turbo or n/a, the same principles apply, turbo heads just operate at a higher pressure.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 6:53 pm 
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The photo below shows the 8v Saab head on the flowbench, initial base test revealed it does not flow very well, wrong valve shapes and ports.
A custom plate is being made to sit the head on, this will ensure the same location every time the head is replaced on the flow bench, it will be on and off lots of times.
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 10:51 pm 
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I am going to enjoy this :corn:
Proper evidence-based tuning!

I have spent many a happy hour reading through Dave Bakers posts. Some was perhaps a little too technical for me, but hugely informative still the same.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 6:45 pm 
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During the assessment of the cylinder head a 46mm Pinto inlet valve was purchased, just for test fitting/sizing etc, this actual valve could never be used on this engine with the standard guides anyway.
The correct valves/material have since been sourced.
Image

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:50 pm 
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Put a SOC in it!
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This is one thread I might log in more regularly to keep tabs on...

Good luck with the next evolution, Dave. :corn:

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 am 
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Fliptop wrote:
This is one thread I might log in more regularly to keep tabs on...

Good luck with the next evolution, Dave. :corn:


Thanks Al, hopefully the thread will also stay on its original topic as well :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:54 am 
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Put a SOC in it!
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99 EMS wrote:
hopefully the thread will also stay on its original topic as well :roll:

Sorry, are you new to UKS? :lol: :lol:

Unlikely...

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:19 am 
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Fliptop wrote:
99 EMS wrote:
hopefully the thread will also stay on its original topic as well :roll:

Sorry, are you new to UKS? :lol: :lol:

Unlikely...


Some deviation is usually good, but sometimes..... :loco:

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:32 am 
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One of the main differences between this head and the original 'Turbo Killer' head will be the size of the valves.
Standard Saab inlet valves are 42mm, 'Turbo Killer' has 44mm, this head will have 46mm valves. 48mm valves are also available, but they are not practical.
Just throwing in bigger valves is not the be all and end all of improving flow, in fact it can negatively effect flow if other parts of the build are not addressed, many things may or may not need to be altered to make them work, port flow/speed, cam shaft design, compression, valve shrouding, valve seat angles AND valve seat widths.

This is the 46mm Burton inlet valve with a 94mm gasket.
Image

Marking out to show how much shrouding can be relieved....not a great deal :(
Image
Image

This would be where a 48mm valve would sit.
Image

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