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 Post subject: Fitting T5 to my C900
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Location: West Sussex
Car Model: c900, Insignia, Discovery
There's lots of info on this mod on the web, but it's mostly on Saab Central and Saablink, and I thought some of you guys may be interested in my experiences anyway. This thread is intended to be more of an overview, for the details you'll need to research!

I first got talking to Saabmatt, about his T5 conversion at the Cadwell track day in 2009. His car is brilliant, and he's helped me no end doing this conversion, with advice, lending me bits etc. couldn't have done it without his advice.
Going back to Cadwell, I also had a ride in a 9000, with a stage ? tune. My 900 came out of the corners quicker, but on the straights this car just pulled and pulled where mine ran out of puff. From that day, I knew I wanted to convert my car. What I was looking for was a slightly more powerful car, but with better, more useable power delivery, i.e. no boost spikes and less boost tail-off at high revs. Plus, I hate the way the distributor always leaks oil onto the heatshield!

So before anyone embarks on a T5 install, I'd recommend reading these threads on Saab Central

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showt ... p?t=162197
and Saablink
http://www.saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33456 .

There's loads of info on these threads, lots of really good detail, and it takes a long time to read them! But bear in mind they're based on a Bosch EFI equipped car, and many UK c900 turbos will be Lucas. But there's an excellent wiring diagram on the Saablink thread – I printed that out to A3, and referred to it all the time.

So how hard is it to do this install? If you can follow a wiring diagram, and can do a bit of 'creative' engineering, it's not too hard. If, after having done all the research, you're still not sure about the whole thing, I'd suggest it may not be for you.

Finding the parts was easy – I already had a DI cassette, and Espin 99 (who I also met at Cadwell) was breaking a 94 9000 Aero. Parts were had. Cheers Mal. I would recommend that you get everything from the one car if you can – not essential, but makes things easier.

Eventually, started work on the project last summer – managed to find a little workshop to rent in a friend's farm.

First – take everything off. Bonnet, turbo pipework, intercooler, throttle body, AMM & airbox, APC box, ignition module, injectors complete with fuel rail, coolant temp sensor (not coolant sensor for gauge), distribuor, coil, HT leads, spark plugs, Lucas ECU. We won't be needing some of them again.

My plan was to use the flywheel as a trigger wheel, so off comes the clutch cover, clutch slave and clutch assembly, and flywheel.

Fit:
Throttle body, injectors, fuel rail, AIT, Idle control, MAP sensor, BPC.
All pretty simple, I made some studs up to mount the fuel rail on the original fuel rail mounting points in the inlet manifold, used some 8mm threaded rod and some ally tube stock as spacers. Also makes a good place for p clips to secure your loom.

Fuel rail & first 'trial fit' of the loom:

Image

Start to wire up the loom:
It's not difficult, if you have taken the loom in one piece, most of it just connects to where it connected to before. Be aware that there are different types of TPS, AIT and idle control connectors if you have sourced the parts from different sources. Best to get all the bits off one car.

Be aware that some of the components need a switched power supply – the BPC, O2 sensor, injectors and DI cassette. Check out the wiring diagram, find which wires need to be wired in to a power supply (red and grey or red and green mostly, if memory serves) and find a switched power supply. One I used was the power supply to the coil, and handily placed.

Again, check the wiring diagram, there is a red wire (spliced into 2) which needs a 'hot' power supply – I wired it directly into the +ve distribution block on the drivers side inner wing, but I think I'll change that – or add an inline fuse.

There should be a large plug about a foot or two up the loom from the ECU connector. You need some feeds from this plug to wire into the connector from your Lucas injection ECU plug, in the drivers footwell.

These are:

CEL Pin 32 on T5 ECU, goes to purple/white wire on Lucas ECU connector which went to pin 10 on Lucas ECU
Main relay Pin 31 on T5 ECU, goes to yellow/white wire on Lucas ECU connector which went to pin 12 on Lucas ECU
Fuel Relay Pin 56 on T5 ECU, goes to purple wire on Lucas ECU connector which went to pin 16 on Lucas ECU
Speed sig Pin 39 on T5 ECU, goes to green wire on Lucas ECU connector which went to pin 6 on Lucas ECU





Now for some hardware:

MAP sensor location: Can go anywhere really, there's loads of cable in a 9000 loom. Not sure about an NG900.

Image

Air filter:

I bought a cheap mushroom filter off ebay, and cut a hole in the LHS inner wing. I used a 9-5 AMM sensor hose, and a little joiner, to connect it to the standard 900 intake plastic hose.
Image

Image


Seems right to fasten the boost solenoid to the front slam panel.
You can also see the air inlet temp sensor in this photo.
I couldn't find a nut to go on the AIT sensor, so I drilled and tapped the inlet elbow. It's not really thick enough to tap, but it's held so far. I suspect it won't take too many removal/fits before the thread won't hold anymore – but how often will I do that?

Image


O2 sensor location:
I drilled & tapped the boss in the elbow – looks like it was designed to have an O2 sensor there.
Image

I never liked the idea of mounting a trigger wheel on the crankshaft pulley, so I plumped for a trigger wheel built into the back of the flywheel. Because I'm skint and tight, I decided I would do the job myself by drilling holes in the back of the flywheel.
I must admit, I didn't take enough care over this, some of the holes weren't drilled too accurately, but it did actually work – more of that later:

First trigger wheel:

Image

Not a great photo, but you can see the CPS fitted to the clutch backplate;

Image

Throttle body:
This was an interesting one. It didn't have enough stub pipes on it – no-where to fit the standard recirc dump valve pipe. It did have a blank though, so I knocked the blank out, removed the stub pipe from the removed throttle body, and epoxied it in.
You need the throttle body as the TPS is different, but I believe you can do a wiring mod to the Lucas TPS and make it work – not too sure about that.

Image

Idle control:
I mounted the Bosch idle control in the standard C900 spot, and bodged the air pipes to suit.



1st run:

Image

So I got it to run, but not without some hassle. First time I tried the key, nothing. I realised I couldn't hear the fuel pump running. I checked all my connections, particularly those in the footwell, to the main and fuel pump relays. All seemed to be well.
So, I ran in separate earths for both these 2 relays (bypassing the ECU) and the fuel pump fired up, shortly followed by the engine when I turned the key! Saabmatt was good enough to re-flash my ECU, as I wasn't sorted out with a BDM at the time, but it wouldn't take a flash – so we tried my spare ECU, which took a flash, and – when plugged into the car – gave me my grounds for the relays. Excellent. I think the issue with the first ECU was VSS, so I would suggest you re-flash your ECU first up, unlock the SRAM and make sure VSS is switched off.

But that was the worst of the hassle – all went surprisingly well.

So a lot of tidying up of the wiring loom etc.


So all was good until the first time I took it out on the road and gave it some welly. First of all it ran nicely, pulled well, right up until it hit 3500 rpm. Then it felt like it had a rev limiter fitted, the revs just bounced off, and it wouldn't rev any higher.

After much fault finding:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showt ... p?t=192797
I changed the trigger wheel from my home made version to a professionally machined one I bought off Saabmatt, and all was good.

Or so I thought – turned out it wasn't the trigger wheel after all, but a small reduction in the inlet tract, down from 2.25” to 2” - must have been just enough to introduce a stall into the compressor inlet at that particular engine speed/airflow. A slight adjustment in the inlet (bodged some other pipes to fit) and all really is good this time.

Final trigger wheel:

Image


All I need to do now is extend the loom so the ECU can go in the same spot as the original Lucas FI ECU, and we're done. I plan to run it a few more weeks before I do that, just in case anything unforeseen comes up.

Image

As far as the ECU's concerned, thus far I've loaded a 9000 FPT map, tuned to stage 2 using T5 Suite, plus a little extra boost at the top end, and some smoothing out of the lumpier bits of the maps. It goes brilliantly at the moment, I took it to Mallory late last year, and all held up really well. I'm hoping for around 220 bhp at the crank, maybe a little more – T5 suite is telling me I'm making much more, but I don't really believe that!

Mallory:

Image

Must get it on the rollers sometime soon.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:52 pm 
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excellent :)
how's the gearbox :wink:

rich 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:58 pm 
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rich wrote:
excellent :)
how's the gearbox :wink:

rich 8)


Okay so far :park:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:53 am 
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Location: Beziers, South West France
Car Model: 900t16 T5 Stage 9
Good work and a nice write up, good to hear saabmatt has his uses :lol:
I'm sure you don't need to change the throttle body, just swap the TPS for a T5 item. I'm using a throttle body off an Alfa with the T5 TPS (the Alfa TPS looks identical, but is a different part no)
It's an excellent system and not too difficult to fit, in my opinion it's better than Megasquirt I was using before.
In the picture with the exhaust elbow/lambda sensor it looks rather rusty down behind the chassis rail by the suspension turret?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:26 am 
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Car Model: c900, Insignia, Discovery
turbofrenzy wrote:
In the picture with the exhaust elbow/lambda sensor it looks rather rusty down behind the chassis rail by the suspension turret?


Yes it is a bit, I welded up the o/s driveshaft tunnel for the MoT a couple of years ago, including a little bit down under the battery tray, but hammerite isn't all it's cracked up to be! As you can see, the rust pushed through. Maybe next autumn, I'm going to have the engine out and clean up/weld up the engine bay good and proper, put it back in with a diy 3" downpipe.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Great topic...thanks for the insight and links!

Red

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:04 pm 
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This is the way I want to go! How much did you buy that flywheel for? Or are there other buyable trigger wheel set ups?

I'd previously been told it was T5.2 you needed as in the earlier 9000s but after reading that it appears T5.5 is what I'm after...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Car Model: c900, Insignia, Discovery
StuntmanAd wrote:
This is the way I want to go! How much did you buy that flywheel for? Or are there other buyable trigger wheel set ups?

I'd previously been told it was T5.2 you needed as in the earlier 9000s but after reading that it appears T5.5 is what I'm after...


It's not too easy to find a 9000 with T5.2. It could be said to be easier to fit the CPS on T5.2, but from what I understand you need to access the oil pump cover - at the inaccessible side of the engine. :x

I bought the trigger wheel off Saabmatt, when he upgraded. But it's do-able - Remove the clutch & flywheel, mark off where you want to fit the CPS, drill a hole, refit the flywheel, set TDC and back mark the flywheel. Calculate from that mark where the 'extra' gap will be, and take it to a local friendly machinist. Get him to machine 60 equidistant slots, and machine out the relevant bit to make the 'double ' slot.

Also, I think Martin at JamSaab does a bracket and adapter to fit the Saab trigger wheel on the crankshaft pulley end? Not too sure about that though.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Car Model: '87 T16 & T5'd C900 saloon
And I'm going to be needing a 240mm 9000 flywheel and clutch before long aren't I so I may end up buying a 9k to break

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:44 pm 
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I'm guessing Martin is on this forum? Whats his user name?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:54 pm 
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StuntmanAd wrote:
I'm guessing Martin is on this forum? Whats his user name?


I think it's JamSaab - www.jamsaab.co.uk

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Great work and great 'warts and all' write up. It is such a satisfying mod to do, isn't it?
Just a word of warning. I ended up moving my ECU from the position you have it in earlier than I intended because the heat of the engine was causing the ECU to malfunction. Extending the loom is a tedious job. Luckily, I had a bottle of wine handy.

Alanb

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Good work Ian. Hoping to go down the same road pretty soon. Have you changed your turbo or running the TE05?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:14 am 
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Alanb wrote:
Great work and great 'warts and all' write up. It is such a satisfying mod to do, isn't it?
Just a word of warning. I ended up moving my ECU from the position you have it in earlier than I intended because the heat of the engine was causing the ECU to malfunction. Extending the loom is a tedious job. Luckily, I had a bottle of wine handy.
Alanb


Alan, extending the loom is definitely on the 'to do' list, I have a connector/length of loom hanging off a nail in the garage, but tedious is a good way to describe it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:17 am 
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craigdeluxe wrote:
Good work Ian. Hoping to go down the same road pretty soon. Have you changed your turbo or running the TE05?


Craig, still on the TE05 at the mo, I have a T3 off a 9000 in the garage, toying with fitting that, should give me a bit more top end. I'm keeping a look out for a TD04, maybe off a volvo, but it will need to be at the right price!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Just a little update on this, I have finally got around to extending my loom, so the ECU can sit sit nicely down in the drivers footwell where it belongs.

Not a simple task - this is my engine bay at the moment:

Image

And in the footwell:

Image

Bulk of the job is done now though, engine runs again, horrible job!!! :park: :park: :park:

Just have a little 'tidying up' to do :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Finished the loom extension. Halle :cen: lujah!!!! :park:

Image

Image

Also added an in-line fuse for the hot power supply. And I extended the diagnostic socket/canbus connector, which now lives in the ashtray.

I will replace the spiral wrap on the rest of the loom with the fabric tape in due course.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Nice thread Ian. Catch up soon fella.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Ian, reading again with great interest, I still can't get my 99 to fire, I was looking for a little trigger wheel advice...
I set mine up to 20 holes before the big hole at No1 TDC using an old 9000 trigger wheel and this diagram---- http://www.saablink.net/forum/general-c ... 3456-3.htm

I was hoping you could confirm I was right in where I set it?

Regards.
Ian

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:37 pm 
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ianlaw wrote:
I set mine up to 20 holes before the big hole at No1 TDC using an old 9000 trigger wheel and this diagram---- http://www.saablink.net/forum/general-c ... 3456-3.htm

I was hoping you could confirm I was right in where I set it?


Ian,

That's the diagram I used too.

I have my original trigger wheel down in my workshop, I'll have a look at it tomorrow and measure the angle, that will maybe help to confirm it?

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