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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:18 pm 
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Location: Steeple Claydon, Buckinghamshire
Car Model: 900 T16s X2
Right then,
I may have been offer a 4 speed chillcast gearbox for my c900 - but i know little about these things except they are meant to be good. So a few questions for you all...

So just how good is a chillcast gearbox - what sort of power can they run?

Are they that much better than a good standard 5 speed?

How much is a chillcast worth?

As an everyday but fast car i don't want to lose too much of my top end speed and as such i currently have type 8's fitted - what sort of top speed would i expect with a chillcast? If its too low is there anything you can do to increase this?

Now i have seen pictures of the boxes and they appear to have the 'ribbing' in the correct places and the person selling them seems to know his stuff. He has provided me with the following numbers - 870423 or 871239 . He has 4 for sale?

He is not in the Uk though so i know that actually getting the box over here may be prohibitive. However he has 4 for sale so i think if enough people were interested a road trip would be the best way with costs divided. Who knows, just thinking out loud.

Anyway, as much info as possible would be appreciated.

G

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Graham, the proper 4-speed chillcast box is the best type to use for high power cars.
The correct one to use is 870423, but this is only part of the entire assembly, you will also need the chillcast primary housing, this does not always come with the chillcast box, see attached pic, you will also need a chillcast pinion housing, your 4 speed will almost certainly have the brittle cast iron housing, which will fail with this type of power.
Here is one of my chillcast boxes, with the correct primary housing, note the 3 narrow ribs coming down from where the slave cylinder sits
Image

The pinion bearing housing on the left is the chillcast type,

Image

As for gearing, if you think about just using 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gears in your old 5-speed, this is similar to what the gearing will be like in a 4 speed box with type 8 primaries.

You will need to strip the box down when you get it and at least change the pinion bearings and intermediate shaft needle bearings, using the correct bearings. Sometimes old abused 4-speed boxes are difficult to split, because the intermediate needle bearing has worn so much that it digs into the shaft and will not allow you to pull it out.
You should also fit new primary chains.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Can't really add much to what Sonett has said - I've yet to break one (phew!) so can't really comment on how strong they are compared to "lesser" boxes.

Have a nose in this thread to see the various differences:

http://www.900aero.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1114

Also look at the SC thread linked in there.

As for value, depends on internals condition. If they need a rebuild, especially layshaft. Probably max £50 for an unknown like that. For one checked over and major bearings replaced etc. then a couple of hundred+

I'd be interested in a group buy of the 4 as I only have one proper chillcast box.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:28 pm 
I'm also interested.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:50 am 
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Location: Tronno, NSW .au
Car Model: 1990 Saab 9000 2.0 'Carlsson'
nutcase wrote:
Can't really add much to what Sonett has said - I've yet to break one (phew!) so can't really comment on how strong they are compared to "lesser" boxes.


The trick is to find one initially! I've come across one possibility here in Australia but that's it. How is the gearshift linkage arranged compared to a regular 5-speed manual? I'm keen to get rid of the auto box in my 81 turbo but don't want a 5-speed - 4-speed chillcast would be so much better.

Craig.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:50 am 
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I have spoken with this chap about his boxes (assuming it is the same chap). He had two 871239 (lesser chillcast) boxes and one 870423 (better chillcast) box. Not sure which the fourth was. That said, even the 'lesser' chillcast is stronger than the std 5 speed box.

The 870423 he sent pics of to me has a crack in the primary housing. I'm not dissing the chap because he was honest about it - I am just putting it out there to get a collective thought on what can be done: can it be welded to a stronger repair?

Are the 4 speed primary housings the same as the 5 speed primary housings? I would quite fancy a combi of reinforced 5 speed box with chillcast primary housing - if he will split.

If he won't split he will take less for the damaged one. If someone wants this for the chillcast box they can have my std primary housing. I'll take the broken chillcast primary housing if someone wants to mate my std primary housing to their chillcast box. Makes sense?

Sonett - which boxes are the chillcast pinion housings found in?

I am toying with getting some steel pinion housings made up - hopefully to accommodate stronger bearings also, if there is interest. Thoughts?


Attachments:
Cracked chillcast primary housing small.jpg
Cracked chillcast primary housing small.jpg [ 185.95 KiB | Viewed 2945 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:41 am 
That's not really a critical part of the box. So long as the crack does not go all around the housing and is only that small crack at the top.

How far away is this guy and who's going to organise to buy these boxes Adam or Graeme - or someone else if we're not quick enough?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:30 am 
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I think he is is Holland or Denmark. I was sent the info through Alex on Saab-V4. At the time I was absolutley brassic so had to pass (four gearboxes at once! talk about London Buses :roll: :lol: )

Things are better now but I don't have his direct contact details. Graeme - over to you! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:58 am 
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Can I show my technical ignorance? :oops: :oops: What exactly is a chillcast gearbox? How does this differ from the trusty 4 speed I remember from my 99 days?
Well if you don't ask you don't learn. Get me up to speed please guys.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:38 pm 
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'Chillcast' or 'kokill' as our norse friends say is the casting process which was used on these two boxes. They are meant to be stronger than std boxes but only available in 4 speed options because of the years they were available.

I am not sure what the alternative casting method is called that all our std boxes come from.

Apparently post '84 5 speed gearboxes with a GM prefix are chillcast anyway, but still not as strong as the 4 speed because of the material that had to be removed to accommodate 5th gear.


The casting process involves a mould of sand. Chillcasting includes 'chills' (or heatsinks) within the sand mould (suck as zink or copper) which conducts heat away from the molten metal faster to promote Directional Solidification.

When the material changes from liquid to solid it contracts which can introduce tiny voids within the material - known as 'shrink defects'. Directional Solidification uses Chills (amongst other things) to counteract this and make a stronger unit without (or with fewer) shrink defects.






Well thats what Wikipedia told me! :oops: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:18 pm 
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Location: Steeple Claydon, Buckinghamshire
Car Model: 900 T16s X2
Okay,
So are we saying,and this is directed at you Dave, the chillcast box can be used with my type 8's and give a similar top speed? Just that 1st will be a lot longer than my current one?

Also no one came up with a power figure - just how much can these boxes handle?

Adam, Emmett etc - the boxes are in Holland. I haven't currently got any more details than already posted. However the figure he was talking about was much higher than Nutcases' £50 a box. Closer to £300 a box.

Not sure of the best way to get them here - i had thought that if there was enough interest in them a hired van, a ferry crossing and a quick road-trip might be the order of the day.

G

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:41 pm 
Holland isn't that far away. I could get there and back in a day and I'd probably just drive the
9000 rather than going to the trouble of getting a van. Could eaisly get 4 gearboxes in the back
of a 9k. £300 is a little on the high side though! And the cost of the petrol and the boat ticket.

I think it's probably worth it. But it would be worth getting all the details and the costs before
jumping in.

A bit more info on the 4 speed v.s. 5 speed situation:

1. I have heard a 4-speed can take a set of type-8's and I also hear it makes the box work
as though it has no 1st gear so the hole set of gears works as though it's 1 gear ahead of the
5 speed.

2. The 5th gear on a 5 speed box is not contained within the main housing. It is actually
part of a modified primary-drive case.


4-speed box - note smaller primary casing - slightly out of shot on the right of the picture

Image


5-speed - see the extra square box with a cover on the front section of the box

Image


Behind the cover - 5th gear!

Image


On the question of how much power the gearbox will take. Depends on how you drive, type
of oil used, mileage on the box, condition of the oil, engine output level, quantity of oil in the
box, condition of the oil, what you're doing with the box (i.e. track, motorway, town,
country lanes...) I'm starting down the oil cooler route this time round. I don't want mega
power from my c900's but I'd like enough power to frighten EVO's and Scoobies and I
don't think that's too unrealistic comparing the weight of one of those against the weight
of a stripped out Saab 99 and the extra drag from the more complicated transmission systems.

Here's the kit I've got to make my oil cooler system. I'm not 100% sure how it's going to fit
together so there might be a couple of fittings spare after the installation but I'm sure I'll find
a use for them at some point and they won't go to waste. Obviously having the oil cooler
means I'll have to use a thicker steel diff-cover so there is something to plumb the lines in
and out of the gearbox.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:23 am 
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£300 for an unknown condition gearbox is way OTT IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:54 pm 
A certain amount of that is for specification. It's what you're buying. Why should you have to pay £10k for the bodyshell for one of those old MK1 or Mk2 Escorts? - it's just the way it goes sometimes. Admittedly I agree £300 is a little on the high side. One of my 4-speeds cost £50 and another was only 99p. I've had a box for £40, another one for £50 and another for £37. However, I've also had to pay £200 on a couple of occasions but both of those boxes came with engines so it didn't feel too painful. I got a box for free when I bought my 99. £300 is top figure but boxes are a weak point and I want to keep my cars for a while so I'm keen to build up a little stock of parts to keep them running.

Graeme, I'm keen to get this organised. Bearing in mind the fairly high cost I suspect it's going to be quite difficult to get the support for a group buy. I agree, £300 is a bit steep! But I'm still game for it. Sometimes I think we take low prices for granted. If someone wanted to charge you £300 for a gearbox for almost any other car it would be fairly acceptable. Saab parts are mostly cheap so in this context it feels a bit expensive.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:31 pm 
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Put me down for the cracked 870423. I think he wants a bit less for that one. I'll pay my share of any delivery / pick up costs.

I'm going to try and do a 5 speed conversion using the stronger chill cast main housing and a post-84 front half.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:40 pm 
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My pukka chillcast was free, and it's in good nick it would seem (even came with a car wrapped round it ;)), my non-chillcast box came with bluey, so £50 for an entire car there. My semi-proper chillcast was a couple of squid and a trip to Leicester - so you can see why £300 for a box to me is way too much.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:16 am 
1. saabstudent - contact with seller + would like to buy a box?
2. ''Removed at users request'' - offer to collect + would like to buy a box
3. adamgent - will come in on cost for collection + would like box with the crack in the primary housing

So if we can get one more interested person then we'll take all four. If not then I'll still go and collect even if it's only for 3 boxes. (will the guy still sell if we only want three?)

We need to know exactly where they are before I'd know exactly what recovery will cost but I suspect something like £50 each would cover the cost of petrol and ferry crossings.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:40 am 
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Car Model: Saab 900 and 99
saabstudent wrote:
Okay,
So are we saying,and this is directed at you Dave, the chillcast box can be used with my type 8's and give a similar top speed? Just that 1st will be a lot longer than my current one?

Also no one came up with a power figure - just how much can these boxes handle?

Adam, Emmett etc - the boxes are in Holland. I haven't currently got any more details than already posted. However the figure he was talking about was much higher than Nutcases' £50 a box. Closer to £300 a box.

Not sure of the best way to get them here - i had thought that if there was enough interest in them a hired van, a ferry crossing and a quick road-trip might be the order of the day.

G


Yes the gearing will be like that, like i said in my earlier post.

A properly prepared box with the correct parts will handle in excess of 350bhp.

The chillcast boxes with numbers 871239 and 870423 will both be good with engines up to around 200bhp, with a chilcast pinion bearing housing and rear steel diff cover.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:46 am 
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Just an observation on the box with the cracked primary housing, this may have been caused by something falling on it? But those cracks do look familiar, the sort that appear when someone is trying to remove the primary housing when the intermediate needle bearing has made a groove into the shaft, this then makes it very difficult to remove the primary housing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:17 am 
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adamgent wrote:
Put me down for the cracked 870423. I think he wants a bit less for that one. I'll pay my share of any delivery / pick up costs.

I'm going to try and do a 5 speed conversion using the stronger chill cast main housing and a post-84 front half.


OK, curiosity has go the better of me, why do want to fit a 5 speed primary housing onto a 4 speed box?

What power are you expecting this box to cope with?

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