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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
I have a 1990 flat front Carlsson B202 I am going to restore possibly re-shell due to corrosion.
The shell will be LHD so would use the loom from the donor car.

My engine will need a freshen up at least so been thinking what my options are for more BHP.
Most of the 9000s I have seen for sale have been 2.3Ts (non Aero) slope front (not CS) around 1991-92.
Is it the same ECU type as the Carlsson? Can I do anything with the 2.3 motor/Box mixed with mine etc? have read the heads breath better.
Wil I need Aero bits? Not sure what cars started with Tronic 5?
I don’t want silly power but wouldn’t mind a good bit more.

Appreciate the help in deciding what donor car to get and possible upgrades.


Last edited by richfr on Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Location: Reading, Saabshire
Car Model: Merc A200d AMG 7sp DCT
Ive just upgraded my sons car to Carlsson spec as it has the same B202 as yours.
Upgrade options are large performance downpipe.
Performance air filter and remove the air filter box snorkel.

We also just changed the turbo and fitted a TD04-15t from a 9000 Aero. So now boost pressure holds all the way to the red line. Where as the little T25 runs out of boost at higher RPM.

Speedparts.se also still sell the chips to upgrade these old cars. Only works out at about £130, so fairly cheap.
Other than that, its a complete conversion to Trionic 5. Then Jules_HT can map what ever power you want.

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92 9000 CSE 2.0T TD04, Wasaabi II
08 Vauxhall Astra 1.8 Elite.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
Paul Taylor wrote:
Ive just upgraded my sons car to Carlsson spec as it has the same B202 as yours.
Upgrade options are large performance downpipe.
Performance air filter and remove the air filter box snorkel.

We also just changed the turbo and fitted a TD04-15t from a 9000 Aero. So now boost pressure holds all the way to the red line. Where as the little T25 runs out of boost at higher RPM.

Speedparts.se also still sell the chips to upgrade these old cars. Only works out at about £130, so fairly cheap.
Other than that, its a complete conversion to Trionic 5. Then Jules_HT can map what ever power you want.


Thanks, any idea what sort of power/Torque gains you got?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Location: Reading, Saabshire
Car Model: Merc A200d AMG 7sp DCT
richfr wrote:
Paul Taylor wrote:
Ive just upgraded my sons car to Carlsson spec as it has the same B202 as yours.
Upgrade options are large performance downpipe.
Performance air filter and remove the air filter box snorkel.

We also just changed the turbo and fitted a TD04-15t from a 9000 Aero. So now boost pressure holds all the way to the red line. Where as the little T25 runs out of boost at higher RPM.

Speedparts.se also still sell the chips to upgrade these old cars. Only works out at about £130, so fairly cheap.
Other than that, its a complete conversion to Trionic 5. Then Jules_HT can map what ever power you want.


Thanks, any idea what sort of power/Torque gains you got?


Hi,

Details on our car are here.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=157801&start=40

But the spec is essentially....

1992 9000 CSE 2.0t, B202. Bosch LH & DI/APC. Originally 150bhp.

Saab Red Box 205BHP Carlsson ECU.
3.0 Bosch fuel pressure regulator.
9000i De-cat pipe.
Custom 3" intake, with large 12" long air filter in original inner wing position.
9000 T5 Intercooler, and all piping. Main Pressure pipe cut and merged with early LH intake pressure pipe.
Dump valve positions all plugged solid.
Abbott Racing 2.5" downpipe.
Abbott Racing full 2.5" exhaust, with 4" rear box.
Bosch LH throttle position switch adjusted so idle mode is now Off. Pop-pop-pop. :mrgreen:
AND, now fitted , a TD04-15T. max boost set to 1.1 bar.

With the TD04 and boost at 1.1 bar it should be circa 220 / 230bhp i would think.
0-100 comes up in 14.5 seconds.

My old 300bhp 9000 Aero used to do 0-100 in 10.5 seconds.

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92 9000 CSE 2.0T TD04, Wasaabi II
08 Vauxhall Astra 1.8 Elite.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:18 am 
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Location: Maidstone
Car Model: 9-5 Aero
As with all things, depends on how much you would like to spend.

An upgraded Intercooler and bigger downpipe would be a good move.
Then you can do something as simple as fitting a boost gauge and a bleed valve. Keep to a max of 1 bar at the top end to avoid over-stressing the T25.

The heads from early 2.3 engines (B234, also known as longblock.......due to the timing chain cover being longer than on later short block/Trionic 5 models) are a straight bolt on and do have improved flow over the b202 heads.
The later Trionic 5 heads flow better still, but require a little modification to be made to either to the timing chain cover or the head itself. I think there may be a few changes needed on an ancillary bracket or two as well.

Adding a TD-04 is also possible, however you may need bigger injectors...... the Carlsson is managed by an ECU with an airflow meter, and there doesn't seem to be an upper limit on the airflow mapping - if the air meter detects the flow, the ecu will fuel for it up to the limits of the fuel delivery system.

The final option as mentioned is a conversion to Trionic 5, and a custom map from a tuner.

If you are going to the trouble of a re-shell, it would be wise to consider upgrading suspension, brakes and tyres at the same time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
Thanks for the help/info Paul and McVities.

Yeah the car will be completely rebuilt so brakes tyres suspension are all to do/upgrade.

So do the long block early 2.3s have the same type ECU DI setup? Bosch LH & DI/APC?
Sure I read the 2.3s have a stronger bottom end?

Thanks again all really helpfull in me finding the right car to use as a doner.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Location: Reading, Saabshire
Car Model: Merc A200d AMG 7sp DCT
1990 Could be an early DI/APC car.
Does it have a red DI cartridge on the top of the cylinder head, or an old school distributor and plug leads ?.

PS: All older bottom ends, B202, B204, B234 are all the same strength down below..
Things only got weaker when GM meddled and released the B2x5 series.

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16 Merc A200d 2.2d DCT AMG, BRABUS D2
92 9000 CSE 2.0T TD04, Wasaabi II
08 Vauxhall Astra 1.8 Elite.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:45 pm 
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If you have the time and you are fully restoring it I would pull the engine apart and inspect it first, check the crank is ok on the mains and big ends and fit some new bearings and seals in there. If the crank is worn try to find a good std sized crank. This eliminates any problems in the future from low oil pressure and losing any hardening or treatment that might have been used on the forged crank. I don't have the material specs, but most forged items have some surface treatment for durability and oil retention. I would also check ring clearances in the ring lands as these engines do large miles. rering if possible and hone the bore.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
rallyv4 wrote:
If you have the time and you are fully restoring it I would pull the engine apart and inspect it first, check the crank is ok on the mains and big ends and fit some new bearings and seals in there. If the crank is worn try to find a good std sized crank. This eliminates any problems in the future from low oil pressure and losing any hardening or treatment that might have been used on the forged crank. I don't have the material specs, but most forged items have some surface treatment for durability and oil retention. I would also check ring clearances in the ring lands as these engines do large miles. rering if possible and hone the bore.


Do you mean the B202 crank if forged or the 2.3s?
Unless I get a running doner car with a known good engine it will be stripped first.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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They are all forged, the 99 B series is and that's the start of that engine.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:18 pm 
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What they are all forged from and surface treatment I don't know. Don't know if Jamsaab might have the data????? They could be en9d or en40b, the first I think can be induction hardened the latter needs nitrocarbonising and would make it a grey finish. The latter would be stronger and would be scrap if the journals are damaged, as a regrind would take away the thin layer of nitrocarbonising and reduce surface hardness and mainly oil retention.
I have a 99 engine that I want an inspec std size crank a I don't want to risk a regrind on it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Car Model: The Pizza Taxi
The longblock 2.3 aeros had Trionic 5.2.

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Might one day get around to the 234 conversion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Car Model: 1993 9000 2.0 cse
no aeros too i think most 2.3 fpts were t 5.2 as mum had a 1991 h plate 2.3 auto FPT that was t5.2

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
This one for example https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1461339945.htm/
Thinking of getting something like that and mix it with the Carlsson bits and paint it the Carlsson Red.

Will that be Trionic 5.2? If so does that give me more options and power?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
Paul Taylor wrote:
1990 Could be an early DI/APC car.
Does it have a red DI cartridge on the top of the cylinder head, or an old school distributor and plug leads ?.

PS: All older bottom ends, B202, B204, B234 are all the same strength down below..
Things only got weaker when GM meddled and released the B2x5 series.


Thanks for the info.
My 2.0 car and the doner 2.3s all have the red DI.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:09 am 
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For the amount of work that you are doing, to fit the Trionic 5.5 at the same time (assuming a reshell) and a later shortblock engine opens you up to the easiest mapping potential and therefore future power gains.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:12 am 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
niven wrote:
For the amount of work that you are doing, to fit the Trionic 5.5 at the same time (assuming a reshell) and a later shortblock engine opens you up to the easiest mapping potential and therefore future power gains.


Thanks for all the info appreciate the help. Lots for me to think about. I did want to keep the car as original Carlsson as I could (future classic and all that) reshelling and keeping it RHD with the correct 2.0 might be the best way for that but the donor car will probably be LHD and a 2.3.
Will see what donor car I get, decide if it can be made RHD (I assume the shell is the same) and then see what the engines are like when stripped see what I have to work with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Car Model: Merc A200d AMG 7sp DCT
Also worth bearing in mind how you want the driving experience to be.
My sons car is now technically a Carlsson, plus some extras. And its so damn aggressive. Brings back memories of driving Carlssons when they were new back in the day. (I used to work for Saab).

A Trionic 5 car however is more refined and less "in your face". And of course, it can be mapped to do pretty much what ever you want.

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16 Merc A200d 2.2d DCT AMG, BRABUS D2
92 9000 CSE 2.0T TD04, Wasaabi II
08 Vauxhall Astra 1.8 Elite.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Carlsson. 93 Aero TTiD
Paul Taylor wrote:
Also worth bearing in mind how you want the driving experience to be.
My sons car is now technically a Carlsson, plus some extras. And its so damn aggressive. Brings back memories of driving Carlssons when they were new back in the day. (I used to work for Saab).

A Trionic 5 car however is more refined and less "in your face". And of course, it can be mapped to do pretty much what ever you want.


Thanks will keep that in mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:35 pm 
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I can't think of any differences at all between shells on LHD and RHD cars.

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