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 Post subject: Re: Given up on Stage 3+
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Location: Lingfield, Surrey
Car Model: 93 Aero 2.8T cabrio
Fuel filter? You say potentially injectors not flowing enough, but are they getting enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Given up on Stage 3+
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:12 am
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
beardydave wrote:
What about the MAF sensor? I think it's about the only one you haven't changed!


It's been considered. Dismissed due to low failure rate and low miles (at the time). I think the card was about 20-22k when I got it on to st3. Now on 50ish.

If I still experienxe issues then maybe.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Car Model: CD Carlsson, 9-3 Turbo
Looking at those old plugs and the way 2 and 3 were white, have you thought about a failing headgasket? Maybe failing under the higher boost pressure.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:22 am 
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
Yes, been considered as it was replaced around 2013/14 but it has been compression tested twice in the last 18 months and passed as ok.

If it fails on the St4 then great - I've got to the point where I'd rather any suspect component just broke as it's easier to identify then!!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:12 am
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
Wow wow wow - this is epic!

I've put about 300 miles on it now and all seems well - no flasing ecu lights etc...

The transformation is total - having gone from Stock Stage zero (well, with the 3" DP and the big IC) to this is mindblowing!

In this weather and with winter tyres on I am NOT going to be giving it full chat for a while but even so, there is SO much torque and speed build SO rapidly it is insane!

The best bit is that the engine / exhaust note is better now - more warble in the classic 900 style - and its deeper on tickover. I guess changing the injectors and turbo its a likely outcome.

Day to day characteristics are it remains a totally civilised drive and visually nobody would give it a second look - fantastic!

All this leaves now is to get it fine tuned in by Karl later in the year and to get the B12 kit ordered during the spring...

... and then next year to go forged internals with T5 cams :-)

I cant recommend this enough - I know its a lot of wedge when you consider everything I have done to the car so far but to get anything else stock with this level of performance, kit and practicality you would be looking at mega £££s.

After all this I would propose the following though as a better solution to St3:

Forget the 3.5bar FPR at £80ish and get the green giants for £200 on the stock 3.0fpr. This HAS to be a much better solution considering the bargain that Karl is for his maps.

If I have have had this pointed out 2 years ago that the stock injectors were SO marginal at St3 then I would have saved SO much time and money and had SO much more enjoyment.

I'd be interested to hear about anybody who has a stock turbo but using GG's to see whats what there. I know the turbo and stock injectors are both supposed to be about maxed at 300ish but then as the Hirsch kit is supposed to be 300 then I guess there is a little left somewhere??

Regards :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Location: Lingfield, Surrey
Car Model: 93 Aero 2.8T cabrio
Awesome news!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9000 Anni, 9-5s by the score
eucalyptus9000 wrote:
<snip>After all this I would propose the following though as a better solution to St3:

Forget the 3.5bar FPR at £80ish and get the green giants for £200 on the stock 3.0fpr. This HAS to be a much better solution considering the bargain that Karl is for his maps.

If I have have had this pointed out 2 years ago that the stock injectors were SO marginal at St3 then I would have saved SO much time and money and had SO much more enjoyment.<snip>

Now I know *much* more than I did on this, I agree. It's as if there is a Stg3a and a Stg3b. If you really, really aren't going any further and are stretched for cash the Stg3a with the 3.5fpr is for you. If you aren't afraid of spending a it for a more robust result than Stg3b every time and go for bigger injectors. Maybe Stg3a should be the bigger injectors option.

If I'd understood at the time then I'd have saved for the injectors back then. Even though back then there was no way I was taking Itchy any further (yeah, that lasted...) and from what I read bigger injectors was the land of serious tuning. That I didn't understand isn't anyone's fault as it seems everyone proposes the bigger fpr. I used the MAPTUN site for reference to see what kit was "needed" for each Stg, still do. Just checked the site and for their Stg4 for Itchy they list the 3.5fpr

But it all comes down to the skills of your mapper I suppose. If MAPTUN are punting out a map for their Stg4 that works with the 3.5fpr then that's their mix. You pays yer money and takes yer choice I suppose.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
DeeDub8 wrote:
eucalyptus9000 wrote:
<snip>After all this I would propose the following though as a better solution to St3:

Forget the 3.5bar FPR at £80ish and get the green giants for £200 on the stock 3.0fpr. This HAS to be a much better solution considering the bargain that Karl is for his maps.

If I have have had this pointed out 2 years ago that the stock injectors were SO marginal at St3 then I would have saved SO much time and money and had SO much more enjoyment.<snip>

Now I know *much* more than I did on this, I agree. It's as if there is a Stg3a and a Stg3b. If you really, really aren't going any further and are stretched for cash the Stg3a with the 3.5fpr is for you. If you aren't afraid of spending a it for a more robust result than Stg3b every time and go for bigger injectors. Maybe Stg3a should be the bigger injectors option.

If I'd understood at the time then I'd have saved for the injectors back then. Even though back then there was no way I was taking Itchy any further (yeah, that lasted...) and from what I read bigger injectors was the land of serious tuning. That I didn't understand isn't anyone's fault as it seems everyone proposes the bigger fpr. I used the MAPTUN site for reference to see what kit was "needed" for each Stg, still do. Just checked the site and for their Stg4 for Itchy they list the 3.5fpr

But it all comes down to the skills of your mapper I suppose. If MAPTUN are punting out a map for their Stg4 that works with the 3.5fpr then that's their mix. You pays yer money and takes yer choice I suppose.


Bang on mate!

Its like it should be (on DE King Cobra):

St1 - basic map enhancement - 270-275
St2 - 3" DP but 290ish
St3 - 3" DP, big IC and GGs (300ish)
St4 - + 'improved' turbo (310-320)
St5 - + forged internals and B O O S T ;-)

Not knocking anybody here as when I did mine NOBODY had had similar issues with running. Perhaps on a perfect set up its ok with stock injectors but with mine only being about 20k old when I did it I assumed everything would be as good as could possibly be expected.

I read somewhere about the possibility of a 4bar FPR... or was it beardydave mentioning it??

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Car Model: 96 V4 & 9-3 Turbo-X
I mapped a 9000 using a 4bar regulator and green giants to try and get more than 310 on an abbott custom td04-15t.

I dont know if the same could be tried on standard 9-5 injectors to reach stage 3 though.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Car Model: 9000 Anni, 9-5s by the score
Forgive me for digressing slightly, but an injector will have a flow rate. Presumably it's something like 1 litre of Irn_Bru per minute using a 3.0bar fpr. Changing the fpr will flow more Scottish Juice per minute but surely there must be an absolute maximum flow regardless of how big the fpr is. It must be limited by the size of the holes (or is that nozzle) in the injector and the viscosity of the liquid passing through. (I did actually pay attention in Physics)

I didn't pay enough attention but I surmise that at some point the law of diminishing returns applies for the amount being delivered. Or is that linear up to max flow and then that's yer lot? Higher pressures will just risk something going bang.

Getting cocky, I've just been looking at 2 post hoists for a garage. :geek: :lol: :lol: :lol: In my dreams. Though I am frothing at the mouth to get these Deka's installed and this bloomin' weather is really, really not helping

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:40 pm
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Car Model: DE Saab 95 2.3 Aero stg1
When I worked on lpg injectors you could keep the same pressure but change the screw in nozzles to allow a greater flow of fuel. So it's similar.

The trick with anything is getting idle to work nicely while still allowing enough fuel to flow at wot at 7k and not running lean.

Still its good to hear your success after so much agro.

I feel happy at stage one on an aero. But I can see why you might want to unlock a bit more. Bit rich for my tastes as I think a saabs chassis isn't the most dynamic and that's where I have my fun rather than one trick pony in a straight line.

Just glad you got the results you were finally after. Few....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:26 am 
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
Scottyf wrote:
When I worked on lpg injectors you could keep the same pressure but change the screw in nozzles to allow a greater flow of fuel. So it's similar.

The trick with anything is getting idle to work nicely while still allowing enough fuel to flow at wot at 7k and not running lean.

Still its good to hear your success after so much agro.

I feel happy at stage one on an aero. But I can see why you might want to unlock a bit more. Bit rich for my tastes as I think a saabs chassis isn't the most dynamic and that's where I have my fun rather than one trick pony in a straight line.

Just glad you got the results you were finally after. Few....


I was there at one point but its a slippery slope!

I sorted chassis out (mostly) before doing tuning - I got everything poly bushed and got the SAS ARB's. At that point the stock aero suspension was still quite fresh as a 4y/o 20k. Also, the strut brace has helped a small bit too.

Its never going to be the best thing in the handling stakes but it can be made to be very good.

I ran thinners on a stock ecu but with the 3" DP and the big IC and that is sort of like St1 power and it is a nice jump.

In reality it does need the B12 kit on it now though to help get the power down - I'm slowly bringing myself into getting used to what this thing can do now and it is truly epic. Roads are just very short and the fun bit happens almost too quickly before you have to back off.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:40 pm
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Car Model: DE Saab 95 2.3 Aero stg1
Personally for me it's a motorway mile muncher and its great.

I would like to know the difference in feel between stage 1 -3 or 4 though. Feel is far more important to me than the numbers.

As you say above its really different.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:34 am 
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9000 Anni, 9-5s by the score
I'm getting there too. I'm currently at about 3- as most of the kit is installed bar the injectors (pun intended)

I had what I call a Picard moment a few days ago when on a NSL signed stretch near home. The car in front was dawdling. It was dawdling coming through the village which is a 30 zone.

Assuming they were paying more attention to their social media than the road I looked to pass them. In my very standard 9-5 auto that would have to wait till the long stretch that goes over the M6.

Not in Itchy, looked ahead, saw all was clear. Hit the loud peddle and "made it so" (as Captain Picked almost says).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Location: South Wales M4 J27/28
Car Model: 2009.5 9-5 2.3T TE St4 Auto
Scottyf wrote:
Personally for me it's a motorway mile muncher and its great.

I would like to know the difference in feel between stage 1 -3 or 4 though. Feel is far more important to me than the numbers.

As you say above its really different.


For 'feel' - it just seems like I have a whopping big v8 in there now :shock:

More torque and sooner. None of the list low torque I was prepared to give up. It just builds and builds.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:43 pm 
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Put a SOC in it!
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I think stage 4/5 is about the sweet spot for the 9-5. Beyond that you lose low-down tractability for a bigger bang higher up, but on the road I'm not convinced it makes that much difference. How's your clutch holding up?! :corn: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Fliptop wrote:
I think stage 4/5 is about the sweet spot for the 9-5. Beyond that you lose low-down tractability for a bigger bang higher up, but on the road I'm not convinced it makes that much difference. How's your clutch holding up?! :corn: :lol:


Clutch??

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Put a SOC in it!
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Ah..... Slushbox... As you were! :bag:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:56 am 
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Good to hear it all seems to be working well now :D

Will have to have another visit to Got Boost!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:13 am 
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Would be rude not to ...

... or Power Station...

Or something near Karl!!

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