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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:24 am 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm
Posts: 397
Location: East Dorset
Car Model: 9-5 9-3SSx2 Sonett T16S 9000
Strange request, but I have just bought a 9000 Aero and am trying it out this week. :lol:

Anyway, on my way to work yesterday I hit the fuel cut off a couple of times in second gear. That is always a bit of a bang!

It goes from 50-90 in third like nothing I have ever experienced, but I have begun to notice that the boost needle goes right off the end of the gauge. I am going to try and dig out my old boost gauge to get an accurate reading, which is my first port of call.

Is an Aero going to be about 1.1bar if standard? It is a '96 which I think has had the preheater removed.

Also, what else can I search for to try to establish the ECU state of tune?

Thank you!

Duncan


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:06 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:34 pm
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Car Model: 9000 Aero
Only thing to tell for sure is have someone with T5 suite plug into the ECU to see what map is there. It could also have a bleed valve fitted as many did - if that's the case I'd get rid as quickly as possible but you may find the T5 APC valve does not work. Good reason to have a good map loaded and the ECU converted to the more reliable T7 valve. (see our very own Jules_HT for that service)
Of course it could also be a stuck wastegate or perished/missing hose (I'd replace all the small bore hose with new as a matter of course anyway)
Boost gauge going off the end will be 1.3 bar plus which is ok for a stage tune but not if it has a bleed valve and hitting fuel cut is not good at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:50 am 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm
Posts: 397
Location: East Dorset
Car Model: 9-5 9-3SSx2 Sonett T16S 9000
Thank you. I will have a good look round the engine bay for a bleed valve, although it wasn't obvious at first glance. The previous owner made no mention of a Stage tune, just how fast it was. I hate hitting fuel cut off and I don't think the engine mounts like it much either! Not each time I accelerate mind, but perhaps 1 in 10.
I have Tech2 but will see if I can drag the map off with T5 suite. The car lived in Bristol and South Wales for more than a decade so it could be a Jules map. I might PM him with the reg number and see if he keeps records!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:12 pm
Posts: 6948
Location: Portsmouth
Car Model: 96 V4 & 9-3 Turbo-X
If it's been mapped by me it will have a sticker on saying so.

Aero manul is 1.06 bar as standard IIRC.
It shouldn't go off the end of the stock gauge unless it's stage 3 or higher, or the gauge spring is dodgy, or the wastegate/apc is not working properly.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
One thing I've had before is a failed T5 APC valve ... it seems they can fail in various positions - giving either base boost, unlimited boost - or even anywhere in between, I had one which gave up to 0.7 Bar!

Turned out the "unlimited" one was the reason why I had 2 x 3" sports cats with holes through the middle - where the engine was running lean. Needless to say, my current 9000 has been modified to use the Trionic 7 APC solenoid which is both cheaper and more reliable.

I think stock map is about 1.0 Bar ... you could try connecting the "C" and "W" lines together which effectively turn the car into an LPT - that should stop it hitting fuel cut.

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:11 am
Posts: 859
sounds wrote:
. you could try connecting the "C" and "W" lines together which effectively turn the car into an LPT - that should stop it hitting fuel cut.

Isn't it easier just to disconnect the elecrical connector to the APC?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:36 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
sounds wrote:
. you could try connecting the "C" and "W" lines together which effectively turn the car into an LPT - that should stop it hitting fuel cut.

Isn't it easier just to disconnect the electrical connector to the APC?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:27 am
Posts: 191
Location: Yorkshire
Car Model: 9000 2.0t , 95 Estate
One other option might be to get one the the cheap ODB readers and see exactly what boost you're getting. One of the readings required for the ECU is the manifold pressure and that's readilly available via ODB comms


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
razani67 wrote:
razani67 wrote:
sounds wrote:
. you could try connecting the "C" and "W" lines together which effectively turn the car into an LPT - that should stop it hitting fuel cut.

Isn't it easier just to disconnect the electrical connector to the APC?

only if it's working, as said - I've got a collection of them on my shelf in the garage - the failed one still gives no restriction in the boost, irrespective of the electrical connection. The T5 valves have two voice coils - for moving whatever's inside in each direction, I think what happens is that the coil(s) fail and/or the moving part inside jams. The T7 solenoids use a simple spring-loaded piston which is much more reliable and only has the single coil inside.

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'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:12 pm
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Location: Portsmouth
Car Model: 96 V4 & 9-3 Turbo-X
Spectron wrote:
One other option might be to get one the the cheap ODB readers and see exactly what boost you're getting. One of the readings required for the ECU is the manifold pressure and that's readilly available via ODB comms


Only if the car has obd. 96 was the year it was first fitted, but not all models got it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:13 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm
Posts: 397
Location: East Dorset
Car Model: 9-5 9-3SSx2 Sonett T16S 9000
I have got OBD and a Tech2 so one of the jobs for the weekend.
I have been on to Jules, who isn't sure about whether he did it, but is happy to sort the T7 conversion in due course.
I don't have any stickers Beardydave, so if it has been done it isn't you!
I am beginning to wonder about a sticky valve. The more I have booted it today, the more the gauge is staying just above the orange zone rather than disappear off the end. I am going to try a carb cleaner flush of the T5 valve as well.
I had forgotten the C and W connection to get base boost, thank you sounds.
Ultimately, T7 is the plan.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
no problem, T7 APC solenoid is the way to go ... you can hear it buzzing when you rev the engine at idle, but that's the only real downside as such ...

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'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:02 pm
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Location: Reading, Saabshire
Car Model: Merc A220d AMG 7sp DCT
Standard 9000 Aero manual is 1.08 Bar. With 0.45 Bar base boost.

A Stage 1 remap from Jules normally pulls about 1.3 bar.
Stage 2 will be about 1.4 bar.
Fuel cutout is at 1.6 bar. Or at least it was on mine.

If the factory giggle gauge is going right off the end then thats about 1.5 + bar. Which is too much for a standard TD04-15T. I only ever ran mine at 1.4bar max.

Whats the Reg ?. It might be known to us, or on the Aero register.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
AFAIK fuel cut is normally at circa 1.5 Bar, the limit of what the stock 2.5 Bar MAP sensor can read. Hence why on mine, fuel cut was disabled in the map it had when I got it ... and was soon reinstated.

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'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:15 am 
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Spectron wrote:
One other option might be to get one the the cheap ODB readers and see exactly what boost you're getting. One of the readings required for the ECU is the manifold pressure and that's readilly available via ODB comms

That assumes the MAP sensor is giving the correct reading. If it isn't, then the car could be overboosting yet the manifold pressure could look normal and that could in itself be a reason for the boost pressure to be higher than expected. Granted that the ECU also relies on the MAP sensor to determine overboost. However, I would want to check the real manifold pressure rather than what the ECU thinks it is. It is certainly not unknown for the MAP sensor to be wrong. I had to replace the one on my 1996 Aero for exactly that reason.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 am 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm
Posts: 397
Location: East Dorset
Car Model: 9-5 9-3SSx2 Sonett T16S 9000
Thanks Bill, I hadn't made that connection as yet. I do need to learn more about how Trionic works.

Paul, it is P52WCK. It is now on the register thanks to mossypossy, but I think the car has been "hiding" for a few years as the previous owner didn't seem to be involved in the clubs or forums. He said it was owned by two brothers from South Wales before him and I would love to know more about its' history.

Irritatingly, I broke a 9-5 Aero two years ago and sold off the connector for the T7 APC, not ever expecting to use it. I have found the valve in a box and am about to hunt what is left of the wiring loom to see if any of the other connectors fit!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:28 pm 
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sounds wrote:
razani67 wrote:
razani67 wrote:
Isn't it easier just to disconnect the electrical connector to the APC?

only if it's working, as said - I've got a collection of them on my shelf in the garage - the failed one still gives no restriction in the boost, irrespective of the electrical connection. The T5 valves have two voice coils - for moving whatever's inside in each direction, I think what happens is that the coil(s) fail and/or the moving part inside jams. The T7 solenoids use a simple spring-loaded piston which is much more reliable and only has the single coil inside.


T5 ones are 2 opposed coils with a steel disc in the middle.
The coils have vented holes through the middle attached to top and bottom pipes
Middle pipe is by the metal disc.

When the coil is active it blocks it's own vented centre and released the opposite one.

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