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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:48 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Very recently I bought a 9-5 1.9 TID Estate. It was very cheap, has fairly high mileage and no service history (although I have spoken to previous owners and am sure it was looked after to a point), and the oil on the dipstick was a bit high.

Anyway, I took a punt and all was well with the world, drove it 500 miles with no issues, but alas it wouldn't drive 500 more...

A big cloud of smoke and increasing engine rpm, twice in quick succession, led to me pulling over, car being recovered and then parked up for two weeks. EML and Oil Pressure Warning light came on just before the failure.

I am assuming that it "ran away" because of the cloud of white smoke, revs shooting up, the car started to accelerate and hit the rev limiter. All over in about 20 / 30s max including when it went back to normal twice.

I've never experienced runaway before, only heard about it, and I definitely didn't stall the engine to stop the car. Parked up and switched it off.

I don't think that a rod has gone through the block as when I parked up it idled ok.

I've had a lack of time and a very sore back which means that I haven't been underneath it yet but I can see that there's oil everywhere in the engine bay - all around the compressor outlet, lots on top of the rocker cover i.e. under the fuel rail, under the EGR and the oil cooler.

My thinking is that there was diesel in the oil (making the level high) and the car wasn't regenerating the DPF (for some reason) so more diesel got into the oil. When the level got critical oil started to be burned (runaway) as fuel and we are where we are.

Anyway - James Vey's thread has inspired me so I'm going to take photos at every stage of my further fault finding and decisions. This may be a short thread as if the situation's bad the car will be broken for bits and put in the bin!

So, here goes:

Day 1 - Sore back be damned, I'm cracking on

The car's either ready for resurrection or in its final resting place (with me) but my back's too sore to jack it up and get underneath, the weather's closing in and I have to do some actual work so Day 1 is short. And oily.

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Oil, oil, everywhere

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Interesting bushing / packing of the inlet pip from MAF to turbo. Should there be something in place of these nuts?!

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Turbo compressor very oily but very very little play and felt ok on the bearings. Oil coming from breather tube from engine I think

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Turbo compressor inlet pipe interface thingy very oily and a bit cracked. Replace?

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Aux belt from 2009 - what's the shelf life of these? Perhaps it was hanging around until last year...doubt it somehow. On the shopping list it goes

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While I was at it I thought I'd have a keek at the cambelt, alas it was a bit too far round its travel to see a date stamp and I was not getting into the nuts and bolts enough to get it cranked by hand. Some oil visible as low as I could see for the engine mount. As I said, it's EVERYWHERE. WP and cambelt on the shopping list anyway I think.

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Day 2 is likely to be Saturday when I hope that my back's better so that I can get the car on stands, get the undertray off and get underneath (and covered in oil).

Stay tuned...

Edited so that the pictures don't have to be viewed from the moon!
Edited AGAIN because I am a cack-handed fool. Third time's the charm I hope. Pics a proper size now.


Last edited by echazfraz on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:58 pm 
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Shotgun
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Location: 'Ull
Car Models: 9-5 Aero Auto Est Stg 1 Noobed
Please resize your image files in the host site as they are way to big to view your topic text and the photos with ease.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:29 pm
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Location: Costa Blanca
Car Models: 2008 9-3 vector convertible
Nice looking car, apart from the oil :) I think your assumption about the DPF being blocked may be right.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:15 pm 
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1024x768 is the best size for the Forum :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:18 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Cheers - third time lucky, eh?! :wall:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:33 pm 
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Shotgun
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Car Models: 9-5 Aero Auto Est Stg 1 Noobed
Much better :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
Depending on how your investigations go, one thing to bear in mind that I read on here is an instance where one of these engines was continually trying to regenerate the DPF. The eventual cause was a rotten rubber hose between the take-off on the exhaust pipe for the pressure sensor and the sensor itself. Meaning that the pressure difference between the two sensors (before and after the DPF) was making the ECU think that the DPF was blocked ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:05 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Sounds - Thank you, I'll check that before I go too far.

Thinking about it, though, if the car thinks the DPF is blocked and it tries to continually regen wouldn't a fuel-in-oil then runaway situation only happen if the DPF was, actually, blocked? Otherwise the regen would cause no issues with the fuel?

Forgive me if I've misunderstood.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:29 pm 
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Auto Sergei
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Location: Mulbarton,Norfolk
Car Models: TTid's only now :-(
I'd be getting the oil level down to a maximum of full
Chack turbo bearing not shot
Cleaning/clearing any accumulated oil in pipes/intercooler/inlet

And try again...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:41 am 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
echazfraz wrote:
Sounds - Thank you, I'll check that before I go too far.

Thinking about it, though, if the car thinks the DPF is blocked and it tries to continually regen wouldn't a fuel-in-oil then runaway situation only happen if the DPF was, actually, blocked? Otherwise the regen would cause no issues with the fuel?

Forgive me if I've misunderstood.

Hopefully I'm not teaching granny to suck eggs here ... but as I understand it, the ECU measures the pressure difference across the DPF and triggers a regeneration based upon that - and other factors, like the distance between regens too. Regneration is done by injecting fuel into the exhaust system which burns in the cat and turns the soot in the DPF to ash. There are two ways of injecting the extra fuel, one is to have an extra injector outside of the engine (i.e., in the downpipe) - but this carries the associated costs of extra wiring and fuel line to feed it. Unfortunately, Fiat Powertrain Technologies (who make the engine) went for the cheaper option of injecting extra fuel on the exhaust stroke using the main injectors. As such, some of the fuel will go into the oil - and the more times regeneration is done - or attempted - the more fuel is dumped into the oil. This is why it's very important to keep a regular check on the oil level in cars with DPFs. Bear in mind also that DPFs do eventually fill with ash and need either cleaning or replacing, which could also be your issue if the sensor pipes are OK, amongst other possibilities :wall:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:44 am 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Wrighar - that's feeling more and more like the plan - I have 5L of suitable oil lying around so I'll drain all existing "oil" and fill up with 4.2L of that.

The "oil" in the car is still above max even though it's nicely rustproofing most of the outside of the block so fuel in oil seems increasingly likely to me.

Sounds - no eggs being sucked here mate, really good explanation that expanded my knowledge. I see now where you're coming from.

Day 1.5 may be plugging in the OPCOM that I've bought and checking whatever fault codes I can find. The EML and oil pressure warning lights came on as the car failed, no messages on SID that I remember, but there should be codes stored I guess.

Then Saturday I'll get oily again!

Thanks again all for thoughts - keep them coming


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:20 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 pm
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Location: Peterborough UK
Car Models: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
The oil level on the dipstick is only accurate when the engine is hot...also regen will only occur if the engine conditions are met in order to do one.
I guess this means it shouldnt prevent you from starting the car ie regen wouldnt happen until well into a driving cycle.
It may well stop if you have a blocked DPF/Cat.
Are you sure the turbo hasnt let go as that would potentially block everything but then again you dont seem to have lost much oil....even though it seems a rather dramatic fail?
Hopefully Opcom will give some pointers.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Thanks CJA - I'm not sure of much at the moment, you guys have all been so helpful with your pointers though which is helping my thought process massively.

I'm not sure that the turbo hasn't let go but the blades on the compressor side were free from damage that I could see, could spin freely with no resistance that I could feel and appeared to have no play in them again that I could feel.

But that's not to say that seals in the turbo somewhere couldn't have gone causing loads of oil on the compressor side.

My feeling is though that this oil is coming in from the engine breather hose as its connection is literally dripping oil when I take the inlet hose from the MAF to the compressor with the branch to the breather off the car.

I am now more genned up on regen, and my thoughts are swaying towards failed attempts to do this causing fuel in oil, oil everywhere, and a running away-style failure.

A doubt in my mind though is the face that I'd driven 500 miles 4 days before the failure. This was on motorway mainly in 5th but I would have thought that everything would have got hot enough to regen well somewhere on that journey.

Of course (as others have said) the DPF could be totally knackered or a pipe from it could have collapsed and the car is trying and trying and failing and failing to regen, diluting the oil, and causing the issues.

I had heard that Saabs were fun but I didn't realise it would be on the forensic side and not the driving :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
In all fairness, I believe that all cars (and vans) fitted with this engine can suffer the same fate - as can many other modern diesels ... it's not a Saab specific issue.

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:19 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Day 2

I've disconnected the battery so that it doesn't go flat, should I be able to reconnect it, turn the ignition on, and still read fault codes with OPCOM? I decided not to do that but to continue checking for oil where it shouldn't be.

Day 2 did not go well.

Someone has made a mess of the jack points, my trolley jack doesn't go very high and the scissor jack that came with the car while brand new didn't seem to have the right handle which meant that every 180 degrees I rotated it I had to realign the handle. I eventually got the front of the car somewhat up in the air.

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Before pics - such happy times :(

The front engine undertray is missing but the main one that's the size of Australia is still there. And there it remained all day because I couldn't work out how to remove it. There seem to be rivets or some sort of fasteners into the subframe that I can't find the tops of by feeling up onto the subframe.

I didn't want to break anything so left the undertray on and started removing more of the airflow system to check what was oily and what was not.

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Everything was oily.

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The EGR unit and the fuel pressure sensor unit weren't attached to the car properly!

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The EGR was on with these three bolts, no sign of the engine cover mount bracket, and two of the bolts were only finger tight.

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EGR Gasket broken (not by me)

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Random bracket not attached to anything and non-original hose

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Injector wiring run broken

Day 2 Conclusions:

Now I know that my car has at some point been owned / worked on by a blind monkey that's missing a few fingers.

There has clearly been oil leaking out of the EGR gasket onto the rear of the engine. Obviously there shouldn't be oil in the EGR in the first place but at least I know that cleaning and attaching the EGR properly can't hurt.

There's a lot of cleaning to do - I could really do with getting under the car and getting the oil off the block with degreaser.

Day 3 Proposal

Tomorrow I'm going to remove the bumper and get to the intercooler and its hoses. Once they're off, and the throttle butterfly and the manifold that the EGR attaches to are off, I think I'll have removed most of what I will be able to, and I'll give it all a good clean and put it back together.

I will try my damndest to get the undertray off and get the oil changed for the right amount of new oil.

Then I'll try and start it and see what happens!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Models: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
If it’s like the V6 TiD, the big undertray is held in place by a succession of 8mm hex head bolts that screw into clips fitted into the subframe.

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'04 9-5 Aero manual, stage 3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:11 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Cheers sounds - I was ticked off to say the least when I finally got under there to have a look so didn't notice any bolts, probably caked in crud too.

A job for tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm 
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Car Models: 9-3 TiD auto
I think all the EGRs by a certain mileage are as caked in crud as that. I cleaned out the manifold (big job) and blanked it off. Engines are not meant to suck that carp through again. I had the EGR mapped out too, to prevent any error codes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm 
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Car Models: 9-5 1.9TID Vector Sport Estate
Working - the manifold for the EGR being the "tube" shaped part that the EGR and throttle body bolt onto? How did you clean it? Can it be unbolted?

Day 3

Much success in removing undertray, draining oil (6L+ came out!), getting the front bumper off, and removing intercooler inlet and outlet pipes.

No photos I'm afraid as I was cracking on - will take some of oily parts when I clean them.

As per, everything that I touched was oily. I looked like Daniel Day Lewis in There Will Be Blood at the end of the day. And I have some paving cleaner to buy and use after the following:

*Undertray had loads in it on the cambelt-side of the engine.
*Intercooler inlet hose very oily, at least 100ml spilled out when removed although intake of intercooler seems dry. Hose also non-OEM.
*Intercooler outlet hose oily and can feel oil in the intercooler at this point, again oil spilled when removing the hose.

There is definitely oil all throught the "breathing" system, and I've removed all that I'm confident in removing, so I'm going to clean it all up and stick it back together, fill with the correct amount of oil, switch it on and see what happens.

I don't really want to drain the coolant to get the intercooler out from behind the radiator as the cooling system is fine and this could just introduce more problems.

I'm at the end of my confidence / competence I think, but if the following can be done straightforwardly then I can just about do them too:

*As I asked above, can the "EGR manifold (long tube type thing at the top back of the engine) be unbolted to clean? Would have to move wiring / pipes but not a big deal. Don't want to touch fuel rail / injectors though. I've seen a video of an irish guy cleaning it in situ but removing would mean I could really get at it.

*Can the intercooler be removed with out draining/removing the radiator? The intercooler looks ok structurally. Can I flush it in situ? Both inlet and outlet are at the same level so may not be easy.

*How much oil typically comes out of the filter when it's replaced? I CBA doing it in the end as if adding £20 of GSF's finest doesn't work when I put the car back together I'll be scrapping it and getting money back on parts bought from there including the filter. If the car runs ok I'll flush the oil anyway as it's not been changed in over 2 years and change oil and filter then.

"Typical Haynes" moment

To remove the front bumper the washer hose on the nearside and fog lamp connector on offside need to be undone. Washer hose was fine. Manual states "reach behind the front bumper and disconnec the fog lamp wiring connector". F*** me - that connector's a pig. I needed about 5 hands to "reach in and disconnect it"!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Location: Peterborough UK
Car Models: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
Looking at your pics your inlet is well and truly sludged up....if the EGR looks like it is then you can probably use a spoon to get the gunk out of the manifold.(long tube EGR thing?)
The inlet manifold can be removed and cleaned...its an easy enough job but time consuming and the cambelt and high pressure pump has to come off.
You can split the manifold for cleaning but there is a risk when removing the screws(its alloy and they can break) in the end its usually safer to buy another imho.
Its a horrible messy job....on the third occasion I did this I just bought a new one and swapped it.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74004
On the oil you usually get about 4L out and 4L in for a fill....if you got 6L =many failed regens.
Intercooler can be be removed without draining the system.

You really need to download the WIS over in the Tech2 section on Saabcentral....you will get most of the info you need for the spanner work...Haynes is not very good really.
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