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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:04 am 
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Location: Kent
Car Models: 2004 9-5 Aero Estate
Recently swapped off my original turbo and exhaust for a used 3" system and turbo with 3" outlet ports

Doing a visual comparison of the two turbos when switching over, my outgoing one was mint - virtually no free play in the shaft. I think it was the original but no idea would have been quite an achievement for 134k miles and 16 years.

The new turbo had more free play in the shaft, not that I know what I'm talking about but it felt like the limit of acceptability, it wasn't hitting the sides anyway so I installed it. It had also been sat in my shed for a year which probably did wonders for the seals.

Well, yesterday was its first real outting. I covered about 200 miles in a round trip to Ipswich. On the way up there was an accident on the A12 and my engine temp got stuck on 103 degrees stuck in traffic. This was a little concerning but I didn't run it with the coolant reservoir cap off with heater on max after changing coolant so I'm hoping if I do this today this will rectify the issue. With the new exhaust I have no idea if the fans were on

Aside from this and the terryfing aquaplaning (Falken FK510) the car performed fine.

Until after 3hrs of driving on the way home (very slow moving in zero visibility in the worst rain I've ever driven in) I gave it some on the dual carriage ways on the A20 after dropping a friend home in Lenham and raced a very quick Caddy (I definitely lost). It was dry over there and what I noticed in my rear view mirror was a puff of smoke I'd left a quarter mile back on pinning it on a roundabout exit. Interesting. Bit of oil perhaps?

Then nearer home, there is a steep hill coming down towards Chatham station it's a 30 zone so I always dip the auto down in second gear. This was the first time with my new system and exhaust on and I noticed a very very oily smell.

What I am infering from this, is that when I get up in the revs, the turbo is burning a fair bit of oil. It's too early to say how many litres per 1000 miles yet but I imagine if I am actually aware of the oil burning then it's probably too much? I've seen turbo rebuild kits on ebay for less than £40. Is this something anyone else has done? Is this sensible for a novice to attempt or would you send it off to someone like Turbo Technics?

I of course am only guessing it's an issue with the turbo, there is also this PCV that's been broken for a year now that I keep meaning to fix. The problem is it disappears into the abyss at the rear of the engine https://photos.app.goo.gl/66ziba3XtJzJE31J6
It usually sits gaffer taped onto the cobra pipe a bit better than shown in this picture. Note, there is a lot of oily residue around the broken bit. I'll be entirely honest, I don't actually know the importance of this


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Oil, on the over run down hill could be seals (which are metal rings but could be gummed up) or could be valve guides. Rebuild kit is fine if you are careful and mark everything up as it comes apart so less worry about balancing up after. given the speeds of the turbine You could also buy a new core which is a straight swap out and in. I can't remember who supplies these but sure someone on here will advise. With careful oil changes (6,000 miles) you would be surprised how they can go on - currently on 230,000 miles with original.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:51 pm 
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Car Models: 2004 9-5 Aero Estate
Thanks for the reply

There was the pipe that goes to the oil sump (oil cooler return?) that is done up with the external torx bolts - that either had a really old metal seal or none at all - is that what you mean by seal or are there large seals joining parts of the turbo housing together?

Valve guides are a possibility I guess, it did have an existing valve tapping but I never noticed the oil burning before the turbo change which has led me to that as the most probably cause

I dont know if relevant, but when I swapped out the waste gate actuator from my old turbo to the new turbo it didn't fit as well, it felt like I had to stretch the actuator into position if that makes sense?

I'll get some quotes for the rebuilds but sounds likely I'll be doing it myself if general consensus is that it's a sensible thing to do


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:55 am 
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Agree with valve guides as if no problems before. No, the turbo bearing seals are usually the ones that leak and these are steel rings that sit in the shaft - bit like a circlip without the tangs. If they are leaking can get blue smoke on over run. You could take the pipe off from the turbo to throttle body and see if you have any oil deposits in there. DIY is possible but just need to be careful. There was a video on You Tube for TD04 re-build adn I did a bit of a write up some years ago now on here with pictures.

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9-5 Aero Estate 2005 in grey
9000 Aero 1995 in black
1994 GM 900
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:22 pm 
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Car Models: 9-3 1.9tiD Vector S Anniversry
Mike9000Aero wrote:
Oil, on the over run down hill could be seals (which are metal rings but could be gummed up) or could be valve guides. Rebuild kit is fine if you are careful and mark everything up as it comes apart so less worry about balancing up after. given the speeds of the turbine You could also buy a new core which is a straight swap out and in. I can't remember who supplies these but sure someone on here will advise..


Mellet? https://www.melett.com


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:53 pm 
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That is the one....

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1994 GM 900
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:54 pm 
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Sounds daft and am I no way an expert but you shouldn't have any play in the shaft surely? You haven't replaced your"original" with a worse one?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:23 pm 
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As above, the oil could be coming from the following :

Valve stems
Piston rings
Breather system
Turbo

Given you don't think you had problems before the turbo swap, if you still have the original turbo, could you swap the known good core with the newer one that's currently on the car?

I know exactly the hill you mean, I like burbling down it on the over run.
Happy to lend a hand with the spanners if needed?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:53 pm 
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Dirtyleeds wrote:
Sounds daft and am I no way an expert but you shouldn't have any play in the shaft surely? You haven't replaced your"original" with a worse one?

It's silly when you say it out loud, but yes that's what I did but I guess I'll only do that once :roll: The wobbly new old one had a 3" outlet welded on so I went with that, the old old one has a standard outlet on it

Well I'm confident that rebuilding the turbo is a good idea - now I don't know what is the best option.

    There's rebuild kits going from a round of drinks right up to £140 for a "genuine Garrett" rebuild kit.
    There's sending turbo off to be rebuild at Turbo Technics for £195+vat

It's tempting to do it on the kitchen table for £20 on ebay seals but that feels like a bad idea

McVities wrote:
As above, the oil could be coming from the following :

Valve stems
Piston rings
Breather system
Turbo

Given you don't think you had problems before the turbo swap, if you still have the original turbo, could you swap the known good core with the newer one that's currently on the car?

I know exactly the hill you mean, I like burbling down it on the over run.
Happy to lend a hand with the spanners if needed?


Are you local? I'd love a hand spannering but even if you could just spare some time to give it a look over and um and ah with me that would be dead useful - as I don't quite know what I'm doing yet. Although I learn a little bit more each time I take it apart


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:01 pm 
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Dirtyleeds wrote:
Sounds daft and am I no way an expert but you shouldn't have any play in the shaft surely? You haven't replaced your"original" with a worse one?


A dry turbo with no oil in it will have more play than you expect, especially if it's a ball bearing core. Once it has oil in it the play will be reduced. Up and down play is less important in a in a turbo than in and out play in my opinion.
Took my old 170k turbo off my old estate, had the same amount of up down play as the dry replacement ball bearing turbo, but had at least 3mm of in out play.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:30 pm 
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Hmm yes didn't even consider wet vs dry differences. Outgoing was still a bit wet as I'd just drained it. I can't remember in terms of mm how much the dry replacement moved but it was enough for me to notice there was a fair difference in play but not quite enough for me to think it'd do a job. I'd googled the subject to check and I seem to remember it had close to/completely zero in out movement

I'm wondering if I put any seals at all on the oil return. There should be an oval seal at the turbo side and an o ring on the sump insert. Now I think about it, I'm not sure whether I put either on - but no idea. I'll find some seals as a precaution. The pipe did seat with a satisfying feeling though

Did the PCV on the cobra alarm anyone?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:36 pm 
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Car Models: 9-3 1.9tiD Vector S Anniversry
MikeT88 wrote:
Dirtyleeds wrote:
Sounds daft and am I no way an expert but you shouldn't have any play in the shaft surely? You haven't replaced your"original" with a worse one?


A dry turbo with no oil in it will have more play than you expect, especially if it's a ball bearing core. Once it has oil in it the play will be reduced. Up and down play is less important in a in a turbo than in and out play in my opinion.
Took my old 170k turbo off my old estate, had the same amount of up down play as the dry replacement ball bearing turbo, but had at least 3mm of in out play.


See told you I'm no expert, learning all the time!


Last edited by Dirtyleeds on Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:23 pm 
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Location: Royal Tunbridge Wells
Car Models: '03 9-5 2.3 Vector Auto Estate Noob Stg 1
jpor wrote:
Dirtyleeds wrote:

Are you local? I'd love a hand spannering but even if you could just spare some time to give it a look over and um and ah with me that would be dead useful - as I don't quite know what I'm doing yet. Although I learn a little bit more each time I take it apart


Where are you in Kent? There is a meet on Saturday 29th August at Headcorn Aerodrome (see Meetings & Events section) where I am sure people will be delighted to talk about it.

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'03 9-5 2.3t Vector Estate Auto Noob Stg 1
'01 9-3 2.0t SE Vert Auto
'81 Triumph TR7 DHC


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:56 pm 
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Hey Alan,

Baring any breakdowns I'll see you there then - thanks for the heads up

Jacob


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:46 am 
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Car Models: 2004 9-5 Aero Estate
An update on this:

I'd noticed more and more oil dripping around the cobra pipe insert for my broken crankcase breather pipe. I finally got round to fixing it (was nowhere near as difficult as I thought it would be to replace the connection to the rear of the engine). Now, my smokescreen performs much more reliably:
On start up at idle
Lifting off the throttle at any speed, but particularly when accelerating to a 30 or 40 speed limit

This combined with googling and now a certainty that oil was entering in some quantity via the intake pointed the finger back to engine rather than turbo.

Many thanks to Rich for coming down last week and having a look over with me, I learned a lot more about my car in the process although my list of things to fix got a fair bit longer

Also many thanks to Dan, who I visited last night and we did a compression test. Cylinder 2 actually shoots stuff out while the engine is cranking over so I ducked down quite low for the tests :lol: here are the results:

Cylinder 1:
Dry: 15

Cylinder 2:
Dry: 11
Wet: 11

Cylinder 3:
Dry: 14

Cylinder 4:
Dry: 13

Cylinder 2 also left a lot of oil on the compression tester. Dan's look of surprise on seeing this told me this was probably quite bad, given that this isn't his first compression test by any means.

The question we had was does this point the finger squarely at piston seals because the wet and dry readings were the same? If it were valve stem seals, Dan posits that oil added to the test would make that seal a bit better and would see a higher reading on the compression test as a result. As this wasn't the case we think it is pistons.

I did halve a tapping valve ever since I bought the car

As for next steps, here's what I do know:
I'm not getting rid of my car
I have hundreds, not thousands to spend
If I am going to be going into the engine anyway, I feel I should leave it better than I found it. Forged pistons and rods are out of the question due to cost. B204 are not.

Here's what I think I should do:
Instead of forged pistons and rods, put in B204 pistons and rods
Replace the cylinder head with a refurbished one (this means engine internals should be uniformly new so I hope to not have to do this again for a very long time/ever)
Leave the timing chain - in an ideal world I'd do this too. However, there's no way I'm doing a timing chain by myself, there's just too much to get wrong. I have 135k miles - I know the guides do go and as Dan has suggested I'll measure extension on tensioner but realistically doing 5k miles a year, it could be a decade before there is a need to actually replace this.

Why B204 pistons and rods
The B2x4 engines are known for having stronger bottom ends
B204 rods are the same length as B235 (153mm)
I picked a set up for £85

I'm hoping to refurb the cylinder head myself on the kitchen table but unsure if all steps are possible? Possible issues with valve removal?

I've seen a lot of posts suggesting the B204 setup will lead to a lumpy low rev range that won't rev as freely and a drop in compression ratio. Compared with lighter Wossner pistons that will rev freer. One option that may be viable is to try to source forged pistons and stick them on B204 rods but I'm not sure if this has been done.

The other option is to just go in, fix only the piston seals and put it back together, while I save up for a proper solution. I could then do a new cylinder head at my own pace. I am not going up in power any time soon. I've got to do suspension, brakes, intercooler first before I can even think about powering up.

My end goal is a bit more top end but a fair bit more mid range and unquestionable reliability


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:08 am 
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jpor wrote:
Replace the cylinder head with a refurbished one (this means engine internals should be uniformly new so I hope to not have to do this again for a very long time/ever)
Leave the timing chain - in an ideal world I'd do this too. However, there's no way I'm doing a timing chain by myself, there's just too much to get wrong. I have 135k miles - I know the guides do go and as Dan has suggested I'll measure extension on tensioner but realistically doing 5k miles a year, it could be a decade before there is a need to actually replace this.



If you are replacing the head the timing chain will be off anyway so it might be as well to do it and the tensioner while things are apart? Also the balance chain (or delete it) while there.

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'03 9-5 2.3t Vector Estate Auto Noob Stg 1
'01 9-3 2.0t SE Vert Auto
'81 Triumph TR7 DHC


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:02 pm 
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TWSaab wrote:
If you are replacing the head the timing chain will be off anyway so it might be as well to do it and the tensioner while things are apart? Also the balance chain (or delete it) while there.

AFAIK, the engine & gearbox have to be removed to get sufficient access to the balance chain & guides (apparently you can do it in place, but it takes longer to do this than pull the powertrain), although the timing chain can be done in situ. The timing chain tensioner shouldn't need replacing.

I'd have thought it was B204 and B205 rods that would be the same length, as the extra displacement between 2.0 and 2.3 is just the stroke? I've checked EPC and B205 pistons have a different part number to B235 ones.

A mate mentioned a place in Medway (and Maidstone) called LCP for head work (i.e., replacing valve guides etc.), however he said it's probably best to phone them first - and the last time he used them it cost about £500 (not sure if plus or ex. VAT).

I was told by Motorvation that in my case the valve guides were the cause of the issue - so if this isn't addressed (i.e., you just replace the stem seals), it will just happen again. Certainly since the work was done mine hardly used any oil and I noticed that it took much longer for the oil to discolour after being changed.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:14 pm 
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TWSaab wrote:
jpor wrote:
Replace the cylinder head with a refurbished one (this means engine internals should be uniformly new so I hope to not have to do this again for a very long time/ever)
Leave the timing chain - in an ideal world I'd do this too. However, there's no way I'm doing a timing chain by myself, there's just too much to get wrong. I have 135k miles - I know the guides do go and as Dan has suggested I'll measure extension on tensioner but realistically doing 5k miles a year, it could be a decade before there is a need to actually replace this.



If you are replacing the head the timing chain will be off anyway so it might be as well to do it and the tensioner while things are apart? Also the balance chain (or delete it) while there.


It seems a shame not to do the timing chain, yes, but it just feels like too much to go wrong and I'm pretty stressed out as it is by the work I'm already committing to do on it, provided the tensioner is still in spec I'd prefer to leave it.

Having spoken with people and watched videos now, it looks like for first timer the best way to replace timing chain is full engine out. I don't think I can throw more than a day at this job start to finish and I think complexity of timing chain replacement as well as removing engine would push it way over my time budget

Unless more experienced people than me are hearing that and thinking that's a really stupid thing to not do it now, then I would probably reconsider


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:51 pm 
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Car Models: 2004 9-5 Aero Estate
It's also getting harder to start. Not like crappy glow plugs on an old diesel on a cold day, but it doesn't crank and fire straight away. There's a second of heartbreak before it goes "Tricked ya" and kicks into smokey life

The car killed the battery during lock down, something I just attributed to an old battery and shorter trips to supermarket etc with no longer runs. But was very nervous about the alternator. With the new battery on, I was largely sure that the alternator was fine. High 12V with car off, high 13s with the car running (13.8V IIRC).

Starter motor not checked

My theory is that hot oil seeps into combustion chamber with car switched off. This causes extra load on engine on inital turnover as the air fuel mix is contaminated with more oil than usual. Does this seem legit?


Last edited by jpor on Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:08 pm 
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I’d suggest having the glovebox light on and the OBD dongle permanently plugged in won’t have done that battery any favours either. You could check the battery voltage whilst cranking to get an idea of how healthy it is, does it turn over at the same speed or is it more laboured? If it’s turning over at normal speed but not starting, it could be a failing crank position sensor and/or DI rail. Remind me - has the fuel filter been changed?

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