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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Hi All,

Sorry I haven't been around for a while - we have had some problems with the Saab, but as I thought I could resolve them I didn't want to burden anyone else with them. The upshot is that she still only has three working glow plugs and has a starting problem that seems to relate to fuel returning to the tank, but has never really been fixed, despite changing the crossover seals and replacing the bleed off pipes and tee pieces 2-3 times. I think my next step on that may be to replace the fuel filter with a combined filter and pump to remove it as an issue permanently. That starting problem is not the reason for the post, though....

We just got back from a glorious trip round Europe and for most of it the old Saab did well. A three day blast down to Lake Bled in Slovenia pulling the trailer tent with and excursion into Austria before carrying on into Hungary a week later. One of the tyres needed replacing there, but otherwise it was 35-40 degree heat with excursions to hilltop castles and palaces with the rest of the time in the lake, the campsite pool or the restaurant. We then had a couple of days in Bratislava before heading back through Austria. We took the back roads because we wanted to see the countryside and also because the motorway carnet had expired (as much an excuse as a reason). It was during that day that I noticed a sudden lack of power - as if the trailer tent brake had locked on. (It wasn't).

The Saab would pull at all revs, but just had no power, leading me to conclude that the turbo was not cutting in. Now for everyone with the electronically actuated EGR valve, my car has the slightly older design which is operated by a vacuum. It is round and has a single vacuum pipe attached. When it does not work, the turbo does not cut in, but it does not go into a limp home mood with that really smokey re-map and the cruise control still works, which is great. I had had these symptoms before and so, over an excellent buffet brunch in an Autohof, ordered another EGR valve (£27 including postage) to meet us in Dusseldorf. All the way there was fine so long as we were on the flat or down hill, but if we did not have enough momentum to carry us up the next slope after going down one hill, we were sometimes slowed to 30mph in second a couple of times, which did lead to some disgruntled truck drivers, even if 90% of any delays were due to roadworks.

Unfortunately the new EGR valve did not improve things. The old EGR seemed to be working fine too. The problem seems to be either the turbo itself or some part of the system that senses when it is needed or switches it on. Unfortunately the older control system has meant that I have not been able to find and ELM or diagnostic tool that actually reads what the EML codes mean on my motor. There may be one that works, but I haven't found it and they mostly have a caveat saying that they don't work on older diesels. I don't want to just throw money at the car, so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for diagnosing the turbo and related sensors/relays/controls.

I may have to use a vacuum pump to prime the fuel pump and give a squirt of Easy Start, but other than that the car starts fine. It is just very low on power atm. Any ideas welcome. I can post some pictures too ;-)

Thanks,

Greg


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:57 pm
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Car Model: Saab 95 2.3t estate
Had similar on a vectra b 2.0dti with the same egr.. Was a split vacuum pipe somewhere near the solenoids (n/s wing area ny battery)

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:55 am 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
It sounds silly to say that I looked through all that last time, because now I'm a year or two on. I've looked at them briefly, but a more detailed look might not hurt. With the vacuum pump I might even be able to do a seal test which will tell me if there is a complete break somewhere or just a slight leak (I'm sure it won't be 100% air tight and hold a vacuum for a long while, but I think that would be more than is needed).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:47 am 
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Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:25 am
Posts: 156
Location: Near Blackpool. No Near Fleetwood
Car Model: 9-3 Aero SS (Stage 1)
Have you tried the SCANMASTERELM software for laptop. Works with ELM OBD obviously and will read basic information / DTC's on the 2001 2.2TiD.

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9-3 Aero Coupe(Stg1)*
9-3 SE 2.0T vert(Stg1)*
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*GBNF


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
I've tried a couple of ELM widgets and had no luck. I don't know if I'm before the crossover model - maybe it works with the electronic EGR model, but not the vacuum one. I haven't tried the more expensive ones as they mostly say that they won't do the earlier diesel models, though if someone said there was one that would definitely work I'd get it like a shot.

I had a look at the pipes and tried the vacuum on the hose to the EGR. It would hold a small vacuum of about 2 psi, but no more. Anything more than that would leak away, but it would hold that for as long as I wanted (well for about 20 seconds with no movement which seemed enough.) I presume that means there is a relief so the vacuum does not get too high and wonder if that's enough for the EGR and turbo.

When I get time tomorrow I'll try again with the pump on just the turbo actuator to see if that pressure will pull the lever.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 5349
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
bear in mind that slow performance can also be caused by a lack of fuel, it might be worth checking/replacing the fuel filter. The fact that you mention "I may have to use a vacuum pump to prime the fuel pump and give a squirt of Easy Start" makes me think it's more related to fuel (or lack thereof) ...

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'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, in bits
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
A few people suggested that while we were away. I didn't think it was the issue, but I'd been carrying one meaning to do it for ages. With lots of help and comment from amused people on the campsite I changed the fuel filter, but it wasn't, unfortunately. It would have been good if it was :-(


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
shame, might have been a cheap and easy fix :wink:

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'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, in bits
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Okay....

I've got about eight weeks until the MOT runs out and don't want to give up on her yet.

I'm going to put the turbo issue to one side and focus on the starting. If the issue is that I cannot find where the air leaks in to either let fuel run back to the tank or else get bubbles in the pump, then a better way of priming it could be the answer. I'm sure that other people have mentioned putting a priming pump in near the tank.

So....

Does anyone have any comments/warnings/advice about using an in-line pump like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Inline-Filter ... Sw6NhZsg7Y

Or lese buying a combined filter and priming pump made for something else, such as this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Astr ... SwxvxW8Urh

I'm just feeling that I need a different approach and if this is a recurring problem then a fix is needed. The car has done 208K miles now, so I probably won't completely fix everything any more.

And if anyone has done either, do you leave the power live the whole time it is on, or only until the engine has started ?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Well it's do something or lose the car, so I've ordered both and I'll let people know how I get on.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:11 am 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Well there's positives and negatives with the bits I ordered.

A negative is that the seller of the stand alone pump has had the listing removed, though EBay says it will complete as expected and he has other ads up. Okay so far as it goes, but not very reassuring.

The positive is that the diesel filter and primer pump arrived today. Not too clean and smelling of diesel, but what should I expect from a second hand filter unit ? Now I need to work out why there are three connections for diesel (are they all needed ? if I connect the wrong one, will fuel turn off if the pump turns off ? how long should it 'prime for or should it run all the while ?) and also why are there so many wires ? The main connector has three wires - what else is needed apart from live and earth ?? - and there are two more double wire blocks. Does it have a pressure sensor ? is it a random computer connector or does it report when there is no fuel ???

Image

I suspect I'm just going to have to experiment.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:27 am 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Never mind the worry about the separate pump not coming, this arrived in the post as I got back from the shop, getting a pint of milk.

Flow is left to right in the picture and I can blow through it one way or suck from the other (there hasn't been any diesel in it yet, so no nasty tastes) but not the other way, so it could act like a non-return valve (optimistic maybe) and will hopefully let the main pump draw diesel by itself, so the pump should not need to be running all the time.

Image

Only two wires should mean less chance for a mistake, but an easy-fit Chinese pump or a second hand one actually made for a similar engine (Vauxhall).


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Not much progress.

I jacked it up for a look the other day and was surprised to find electrical wires gong to the filter. What on Earth for ?

I had second thoughts about cutting the hoses to the filter as it could completely immobilise the car and the pipes to the filter have special adaptors, though I do have connectors to join a straightforward cut, so maybe I should just get on with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
The wires to the filter may be for a water sensor, pretty sure the 1.9 Diesel engines cars have them so maybe the 2.2's did too?

_________________
'98 9k 2.3T CSE, stage 3
'04 9-5 Aero manual, in bits
'08 Jaguar XFR (quick enough as-is)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
A water sensor in a diesel filter ?

Okay - I've just done a search. I had no idea that such a thing existed and I wouldn't have guessed what whatever warning light came on could mean.

I need to play with the other bits to work out what they all do and work up some courage.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 9.3 SE tdi
Quite a long delay, but I'm sure you've all been on tenter hooks waiting for the outcome.

No matter how I tried to connect live and earth wires to the filter and lift pump, there was no life, so I may well have been sent a dead one. I spent ages pontificating before fiddling with the fuel line and actually waited to see if I could get her through the MOT and some stuff moved before I bit the bullet. Somehow she passed (though I've had some more welding to do pointed out that I'll look at when I have time) and last weekend I finally fitted the stand-alone pump.

I would have done it sooner, but someone parked right alongside and it started raining, but that was just excuses. I didn't want to be radical if I could avoid it, so I wired an extended lead to run from the pump to the cigarette lighter socket. That way I would know if the pump worked and be sure of when I had it on and when it was turned off. Any problems and I could pull the lead out etc. Down by the filter, the pipe to the front is just a rubber pipe and I had to cut a short section out because of the size of the pump. There was a plastic plate held on with two M6 nuts (ie needing a 10mm socket) and taking that off made it a lot easier. I found refitting the filter fiddly because the pump I used was quite big, so it was hard shoving it back into the gap, but if you just used a non-return valve (see below) it would be easier.

So - did it work ?

Well it didn't immediately burst into life, but it had been sitting for a month (well a couple of weeks at least) and one of the glow plugs doesn't work I wasn't surprised. The fuel lines had been dry and the pump pushed fuel up. I checked at the relief valve and when I pushed on it some diesel came out. Whether it was easy or not, with a bit of easy start it started and I didn't have to use the vacuum pump to prime it.

Since then the car has started every time without any fuss at all. I haven't even plugged the pump in, so I think the pump is basically acting as a non-return valve and that has been enough to sort the starting problems. As you could buy one for a fiver on Ebay and fit it in half an hour I think I'd recommend it as a solution to this problem.

Now - the turbo...


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