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 Post subject: 97 9000 Aero brake lines
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:09 pm 
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In the process of fitting flex ss HEL lines courtesy Billj. I expected problems and not been disappointed. The unions at the top of the front wheel arches where the flex mates to the solid lines are badly rusted so i will probably have to cut the lines and make up some new ones.
I have an SP 270 series double lap flaring tool with dies/punches for 4.75mm anf 3/16" pipe. The coated pipe on the car is 4.85 so I guess the 4.75 od pipe is the correct one. I also have a stack of 3/16 unf male unions which do screw into the calipers but I guess there is a proper metric equivalent. The last time i used this kit was +30yrs when I was working on old MGs and Minors when I used copper brake pipe!!. Where do I buy pipe and unions for the Saab. The unions at the moment are steel. Presume brass is a better bet. What spec pipe? Thanks in advance for your advice.


Last edited by razani67 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9000 brake lines
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Location: Kippen STIRLING
Car Model: 9-5 Aero Sportwagen and more
razani67,

Most people use Cunifer rather than copper. It doesn't work harden then split if you need to re-do or adjust a bend. Also it doesn't sag like copper over modest lengths. You can buy 10m lengths from most good motor factors, together with a pack of metric unions. ( I think even EuroCarParts do them ) Worth replacing the flexy connections while you are at it. You can get steel braided ones made up for not a lot more. ( Search E-Bay ) Worth doing, especially on the front, since the standard brakes need all the help they can get. Be very careful picking the old pipe out of the clips under the car since they will be brittle and easy to snap.

Paul @ Kippen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Been there, done that. Several times. Ended up replacing almost all the rigid pipes.

You need 3/16" tube (which is only 1/80 of a mm larger than 4.75mm so I doubt you could tell the difference). As Paul says, Cupro-Nickel (some people call it Cunifer but I believe that''s a trade-name) rather than copper.
The fittings are M10 (actually M10 x 1.0 but I doubt you'll find any different thread other than 1.0mm). There are different lengths but standard length is correct for the 9000 (and C900).
Any motor factor should be able to supply the mild steel ones (even Halfords do them, along with the tube).

You can get brass ones but some people say that is too soft, regardless of the fact that some of the fittings the unions screw into on the C900 are brass :roll:
GirlySaabFan has used them on her T7 project car.
You can also get stainless fittings. http://ccsfasteners.co.uk/stainless-bra ... c-124.html
The normal M10x1 male nut will do - you don't need fully-threaded.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:44 am 
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Thanks guys. Cunifer it is then. I think you have answered my next question Bill. The original pipes are 4.75mm plastic coated. 3/16" is 4.76mm.I have dies for both pipe sizes but it seems difficult to get 4.75. Are you saying that provided you have the mated fitting the 2 are interchangeable?
I like the idea of staimless fittings.
I haven't got round to the rear brakes yet but I expect to find the same issue. That will be a bit of a b****r as it will mean the long lines over the tank and under the car. Not looking forward to that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:39 pm 
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this is what I used when re-making all the brake lines on mine - well, 2 lots of it - possibly slight overkill as I think I have most of the second lot of pipe left. Changed everything from ABS pump to each wheel, in my case I used brand new flexi hoses rather than HEL ones. You'll probably need to drop the fuel tank, though (I did).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:53 am 
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razani67 wrote:
The original pipes are 4.75mm plastic coated. 3/16" is 4.76mm.I have dies for both pipe sizes but it seems difficult to get 4.75. Are you saying that provided you have the mated fitting the 2 are interchangeable?

Yes, it will make not a jot of difference in the real world.

The real difference is:
0.0125mm
or one 80th of a mm
or 12.5 microns
or 0.26% (of 4.75mm)

I doubt even the best flaring tool outside the laboratory will make a flare to that accuracy or even close. I would be surprised if the tube were manufactured to such a close tolerance to start with.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:34 am 
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3/16" it is then. One last question for the metallurgists amongst us-one has to be careful with ss fasterners and ideally use anti-scuffing paste to prevent seizing. That is for ss on ss. Presumeably there is nothing to worry about when we have dissimilar metals but the HEL fitting is ss so where it connects to the solid pipe I will have ss to ss- can that be an issue? I rather like the idea of using ss ends on the brake pipes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Isn't it when metals are dissimilar that there is more chance of corrosion, electrochemically anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:19 pm 
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I thought there was a particular problem with ss fasterners whereby it could possibly "weld" to its partner unless precautions were taken. Nothing to do with corrosion.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Ah, an unknown unknown for me. I'm curious as to the answer though.

Maybe different grades of stainless?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:45 pm 
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I heard/read somewhere that SS fastenings (bolts/nuts etc) should not be done up with a rattle gun as the vibration 'welded' them together. That was when I was planning on building a Robin Hood with a SS body (long ago).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:53 am 
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Here you are;
http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html
http://www.pencomsf.com/wp-content/uplo ... ALLING.pdf
If you have ever wondered why you may have had problems with those stainless nuts on the wheelarch trim-look no further. If you cross thread and press on thinking it may be dirt on the thread-it's curtains. You will never free it.
I will press ahead with ss ends-just take precautions that it all goes up finger tight before the final compression so that I dont put any heat into it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:47 pm 
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I've used a fair few stainless fasteners on my cars and never had them stick. Not even the ones holding the exhaust flanges together under the car. I don't think you'll have a significant problem. Even if you do (if you ever have occasion to undo them again) then I'll bet it'll be a lot less hassle than rusty mild steel fittings.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:07 pm 
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In general I echo your sentiments Bill but I have seen it happen. I used to work for an engineering company making high speed centrifuges in s/s. When it happens its out with the cutter. I have certainly had a few of the wheelarch nuts sieze, causing the bolt to snap or the head to turn in the holder. All they are saying is make sure the threads are clean and the bolt enters correctly. If you have muck in there or the bolt is askew so that you generate heat- then watch out. Good housekeeping really but it is less forgiving than steel


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:55 pm 
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I suppose I don't ccross-thread them. However, I've never had a wheel-arch nut seize either.
Still, don't cross-thread the fittings and no dirt will get in there anyway.

Or just use brass fittings and forget about stainless seizing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Decided to instal some new lines in with ss fittings. How do you get at the manifold underneath the hydraulic unit where all 4 pipes terminate. So far have removed the battery box in an attempt to go in at the top. Very little room. Was going for the one near the bulkhead first, that's the one that goes to the n/s wheel arch,which is wrecked, but it is impossible with a 6 sided brake spanner. Just cannot get enough movement. Tried going in from the bottom after removing the front portion of the exhaust. Just as bad access.Only way seems to remove all pipes starting at the front. That seems to be the only way to get at the one near the bulkhaed. I was hoping to avoid disturbing some of the lines. How has anyone else done it?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:48 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
Decided to instal some new lines in with ss fittings. How do you get at the manifold underneath the hydraulic unit where all 4 pipes terminate. So far have removed the battery box in an attempt to go in at the top. Very little room. Was going for the one near the bulkhead first, that's the one that goes to the n/s wheel arch,which is wrecked, but it is impossible with a 6 sided brake spanner. Just cannot get enough movement. Tried going in from the bottom after removing the front portion of the exhaust. Just as bad access.Only way seems to remove all pipes starting at the front. That seems to be the only way to get at the one near the bulkhaed. I was hoping to avoid disturbing some of the lines. How has anyone else done it?


I think I took the throttle body and pipes off as well to get more room as I was renewing the whole Abs unit last year and I use a proper brake pipe spanner....so much easier.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:33 pm 
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You won't need a brake spanner - the nut will be in good condition at that end of the pipe. I used an open-ended spanner and did it very slowly, working by feel, turning a tiny bit at a time. you probably won't have to turn it much before you can undo it the rest of the way by hand. Refitting is a straightforward reversal of removal... :evil:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:38 pm 
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I'll have to take a look at the weekend. But it wasn't easy ... from memory they were done as a mixture of from below and above. Much stretching and leaning over involved! I have a feeling that I cut the line at the ABS valve body, then used a six sided socket and/or a spanner, tapping it with a hammer to shock it loose ...

Ideally try to remove the original pipe whole (less the ends) and use that as a template to form the replacement - more important on the long runs to the rear. There are unions at the bottom of the firewall so you can do the engine bay part separately.

No doubt it's much easier with an empty engine bay which is how they would have been fitted originally!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:46 pm 
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You make it sound reasonably easy, if a little tedious, Bill. I have some good brake spanners but they are hex and have a crank which makes things pretty difficult. I have put one of them in the vice and taken the crank out. Was able to get it on the back nut but left with only 10 deg. movement before hitting the bulkhead. Thought I had loosened it but I have loosened the 15mm female adaptor that goes into the manifold body. The pipe is still stuck fast in the adaptor. It is now a 2 spanner (11/15mm) job-nightmare.
I think I can see the best way to do it from the top. I want a couple of flare nut wrenches, straight without a crank and, most important ,bi-hex. I have not been able to find any on the net. Even snap-on only do hex.I will continue to search.


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