UKSaabs

THE site for UK Saab people!
It is currently Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:12 am

All times are UTC



Forum rules


When you put a new thread up in the Workshop please put your car's year and model in the title, along with just a brief indicator of the problem.

Car Year - Car Model: Brief description of issue. EXAMPLE- 1999 9-3. Problems starting when hot

Please also add as much information as you can about the problem, to your post.

This will help us to help you, without having to ask basic details such as what car you have.

Threads with non-compliant titles will be moved to The Pit Lane (in which no replies can be posted, but the OP can edit the thread - upon which the thread will be released to the workshop forum)

Nb. Generic thread titles for truly generic issues that genuinely are not model or variant specific (such as "how do I change the spring in an forge wastegate actuator") are acceptable

**The first 5 posts for new users require individual moderator approval (which they will only get it if they are in line the rules of the forum). Please be patient and allow time for that to happen, and avoid duplicate postings.**



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:17 am 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
I had no feeling of a light head, or breathing problems, not even a cough when spraying this stuff. All symptoms came 24 hours after.

I have been to the doctors and they rang a toxicologist who said I carn't have had enough exposure as I would have had breathing difficulties and running eyes. The doctor then went down the line of it being an anxiety issue and wouldn't send me to anyone. I then had to pay to go to a private consultant in Neurology, who luckily has put me on his NHS books and I have had blood tests and an MRI. I believe these are clear as the doc can see the reports on the system. BUT there is no direct test for isocyanates or any treatment and I don't believe these chemicals leave the brain. By the time they start to effect you it's too late.
Its not just iso paints because people have suffered from Painters Syndrome that have never painted with this type of paint. This is where they get the shakes like Parkinson's and this can only be due to chemicals in the brain. All thinners can and will build up in the brain, they are fat seeking and hard to remove. I would not paint your car project with any car paint, budget in for a professional to do the work.

The other problem is that the industry is full of back street garages with inadequate spray booths, blasting the stuff out of their doors in to residential areas. My friend blows this stuff daily out of his garage door next to the neighbours house! It all need regulating, where you at least need to go on a std course on the safety issues and have your premises inspected for the correct spray booth, storage areas and breathing gear before you get a licence which allows you to buy certain types of paint. I believe this is the system my friend who is a farmer has to use for his far less dangerous fertilizers.

Like I said I didn't know any of this before I had the problem and just followed advise from an experienced painter. I even managed to find a picture of a guy on a VW site painting the inside of his camper with 2K with no mask on. I now know about 7 people within the Saab world that have had over exposure issues to the stuff. It seems a major problem in the DIY/classic car world.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:27 am 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
Also on the for professional use front, why is it that I could buy 2K from a paint supplier at an autojumble. Clearly selling to the public!
All the paint tins just say 2K and what colour it is, I don't think they even had a warning on the blank tins. The hardener, probably had the correct orange labels and a contains isocyanates on it.
This wasn't the guy that said "you should be OK outside with a normal spay mask", or where the last lot of paint came from, just an example of some of the 2K I used in the past.
I also don't recon Ebay is the place for this stuff, but its on there too! Maybe Syria is a customer?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:38 am 
Offline
Active user
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:50 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Norfolk UK
Car Model: 2001 9-3 HOT Aero
I think regardless, we should all be responsible for our own actions.....for OUR safety, and I do believe all tins should have FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY on them, anyone who buys paint from an autojumble is plain crazy in my view....but again that's just my view.

If you went to a reputable paint supplier then you may well find it's a different story, in fact most shouldn't even sell it to joe bloggs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:04 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
The problem is you need to spend along time looking to see what it can do to you. I wouldn't spray the stuff, and you should not spay at all if you have got breathing difficulties from a previous exposure.

There is next to no test data for neurological effect as this testing is done on animals and you carnt ask one of them if they have a funny feeling in the head. All the exposure levels are for breathing sensitization, so you are in the lap of the gods regarding neurological effects.

We bought paint from 5 suppliers in Sheffield, all supplied the paint. I even contacted the company of the hardener direct and even he said they painted test panels without carbon respirators. So what chance dose the DIYer have. POR-15 has iso in it and they only say use a carbon filter, but British HSE say Air fed only with Iso! If you use carbon filters you need to have a face fit mask and a company to air test the concentration, then they can work out a swap out routine. If the level is too high you have to use air fed.

We did ask the paint shop what to use and if 2K was OK for painting a project car outside and they recommended the 2K and sold us the box of masks. I am sure back then the warning was only that it contained Iso's.

Even better is the countries HSE that show the painter painting with cheap B+Q throw away gloves that Iso goes through. Again I only learnt that in the last few months, which is why a short training session on the stuff that cost £50-£100 a pop wouldn't go amiss.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:50 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
I have to accept my own failings, but this just shows how you can end up not recognising the danger.

The guy at the autojumble has a paint supply shop (or did have last time I went).

I wouldn't trust anyone at the local paint shop, do your own homework! Look at the lab test results and HSE cases. There was a report done by a US HSE body that found 60 pc of the local autosprayers in a large city were using dangerous practises.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:12 pm 
Offline
UKS Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:44 pm
Posts: 11953
Location: Bristol
Car Model: '99 9-3 ex-LPT '55 Diesel SW
rallyv4 wrote:
I have to accept my own failings, but this just shows how you can end up not recognising the danger.


This is a fair point. I ordered some scarabe green paint online and some laquer to go with it, to tidy up some rusty arches. Can't say I paid particular attention to the tin, just sanded, filled, primed and sprayed in the street with no mask at all; just a vague sense that I should avoid breathing in heavily whilst spraying. Wouldn't be able to tell you whether it was 2K, 1K, or OK.

It's really easy not to realise quite how dangerous something is, particularly when the dangers are not spelt out. "Contains Isocyanates" doesn't tell you anything. A warning such as "Warning, even small amounts of isocyanates can cause irreparable nervous system damage. Particulate masks may not be effective in preventing inhilation" or something like that should be mandatory.

People don't realise how nasty coolant or brake fluid is either TBH. I used some woodworm stuff that said "professional use only" on it, just dismissed that as a mixture of racketeering and disclaimer, got a 3M organic filter, and got on with it.

Guess I should be more careful (and if there is one thing you have achieved by posting this, it is ensuring that I will be, so thanks for that).

_________________
UKSaabs Fantasy Formula 1 Freak
Federation of Master Bodgers Accredited
T5 Tuner


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:18 pm 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:02 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Huddersfield West Yorkshire
Car Model: Saab 9-5 Aero
Sorry to hear about this Rich. I work with a guy that used to have his own spray business and he backs up all that was said about 2 pack. In the caravan trade we just use cellulose that doesnt cause as many problems. However we do use epoxy resin for floor repairs, or should i say did until one or two of us reacted to it. You dont have to have contact its just the vapour. My face and neck swelled up combined with headaches, itching and blisters between fingers and in sensitive areas for a month!! My face felt like it was sunburnt. Beware!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:49 am 
Offline
UKS Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4172
Location: trossachs
Car Model: Turbo xx
Isocyanates are a systemic poison and it is one of the most pervideous toxins out there

Once you are sensitised after the first exposure it will only take a few molecules to create a reaction ,nasty nasty stuff


You can use it if you take the right precautions ,

You need to be fully enclosed in an appropriate protective suit and gloves
A passive mask is possible ,but must be certified against isocyanates and replaced each time it is used
Air fed masks can be a problem if the compressor intake is anywhere near where the spraying is taking place ,unless it has an isocyanate filter on the intake

Then there is the question of the people around when you are spraying
Unless you are in the middle of nowhere ,the people around you will be getting exposed as well
To protect them you need to have extraction and a filtration system to take out the organics and isocyanates


Do all this and you can do it yourself

_________________
Turbo X wagon +hirsch
900 t16 s carlsson wanabee
M-power Clan Crusader
Mgtf
Nissan Terrano
mazda2


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:19 pm 
Offline
UKSaabs Trader
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 9:53 pm
Posts: 15410
Location: Devon
ylee coyote wrote:
Air fed masks can be a problem if the compressor intake is anywhere near where the spraying is taking place

Yes, if the air supplied by the compressor is taken from the contaminated environment you are trying to protect yourself from, there is no point in using the mask.

ylee coyote wrote:
unless it has an isocyanate filter on the intake

However, the reason for using an air-fed mask in the first place is because it is not very feasible to filter out isocyanates without having a process in place to replace the filter with sufficient frequency.

_________________
www.SAABits.com - helping to keep Saabs on the road
10% Discount for UKS members: enter code UKS2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:15 pm 
Offline
UKS Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4172
Location: trossachs
Car Model: Turbo xx
Good points

Many might think an air fed mask is the answer, but the compressor is in the same room as you are using to spray so defeating the reason for using the mask in the first place ....

Also breathing air should be well filtered anyway ....

_________________
Turbo X wagon +hirsch
900 t16 s carlsson wanabee
M-power Clan Crusader
Mgtf
Nissan Terrano
mazda2


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:42 pm 
Offline
Active user
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:50 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Norfolk UK
Car Model: 2001 9-3 HOT Aero
ylee coyote wrote:
Good points

Many might think an air fed mask is the answer, but the compressor is in the same room as you are using to spray so defeating the reason for using the mask in the first place ....

Also breathing air should be well filtered anyway ....


An Air fed mask IS the answer, and who in their right mind would actually breath from a compressor in the same room as they're spraying, and NOT have it filtered????? Answer: someone who shouldn't even be looking at a tin of paint, let alone opening it!!! :wall:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:12 pm 
Offline
Carpin' On
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:41 pm
Posts: 21018
Location: Derby Township
Car Model: SAAB 900S/SCIROCCO GT
Said this before, a lad I knew painted his bodyshop floor with a yard brush and grey 2k, he was found stuck to the floor dead on one Monday morning.

Oxygen mask fro a fireman will do though if you know one.

Full spray white clothing from the motor factors are cheap as chips.

_________________
" Have you come prepared ? Aye, I have a Stromberg Carb diaphragm in my pocket " ! !


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:26 am 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:38 am
Posts: 52
Car Model: Trionic 5.5 84 900 8vT
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 7178,d.dGI

Just as a general - isos and indeed all solvents in paints are readily absorbed through the skin and eyes and proper protection includes goggles, hood/ tyvek/nylon coveralls.

sundstrom provide a mask system for isocyanates that has been independently safety certified - the filters must be replaced every week-2weeks or earlier with heavy use even if only briefly exposed to isos as the filter gradually becomes consumed by the isos after the first exposure. The industry standard is a filtered air fed respirator system (compressor run) and full fan booth extraction/filtration

generally if you can smell anything you are putting yourself at risk - problem with isos is that you cannot smell them whilst being exposed to toxic levels - and a lot of people think they're ok, if your eyes water you know you're being exposed to high levels of isos among other things

I would never spray 2k at home because you put at risk -not just yourself but your neighbours kids etc too

only the 2k clear or single stage 2k has isocyanates in it - primers and basecoat do not. You can get iso free 2k clear - people find it hard to use...

it sounds a bit like you have suffered toluene poisoning, not so much iso poisoning, isos cause occupational asthma (a hypersensitivity reaction to the iso compound) and sensitisation (next dose is very small to trigger symptoms) whereas toluene has a number of specific neurological (, gastrointestinal and skin symptoms (3 main groups you mention) among others.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/8 ... ew#showall


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:36 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
It's worth getting a organic filter mask, overalls and some good gloves (not those thin blue things that iso and other chemicals go through) when dealing with any thinners and air fed with Iso. Basically there are loads of people that will paint your car for a good price, but if it lives in a garage all the time, you probably don't need 2k. Birdie Mangos car shines and that with celly (but I would still want air fed for any sizable spray painting of any type). I wont paint a car again and I don't expect the poor guy trying to make a living having to use 2k. I will probably look into other paints like Bill suggested.

Not all 2k primer are iso free as the hardner has quite a lot of iso in it, look it up on the Coshh data (all the things I should have done 10 years ago). You tend to mix this at a lower quantity 4 or 5:1.

The problem with the lung sensitisation is that there is evidence to back up that it is actually caused by iso left in the lung and its a chemical reaction with other natural chemicals in the lung. They don't tell you that one either, so its not a normal breathing sensitization. That's why you shouldn't become in contact with it once sensitised.

Anyway enough of this I feel pretty bad thinking about it. I think the thread will make a few people a lot safer. Spay painting is probably one of the most dangerous things DIYers do, its up there with working under a supported car.

And if you work in construction leg it if anyone starts spray painting steel or using spray foam. Even a tin of spay foam from B&Q contains iso (I bet nobody knows what it even is that shop their).

Rich


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:46 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm
Posts: 1461
Also watch modern fuel. I know several people including myself that have suffered sh@ts in the past from only doing stuff like priming the carbs and fuel system. This stuff also can get in the brain now its ethanol based (and I use to cover my hands with that stuff an light it in my chemistry class).

Then you can go racing with Methanol in VSCC and poison the bloke following behind with un-burnt fuel vapour.....

or kill your brain with sweetners and diet drinks....the chemical industry, you carnt get away from it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:12 pm 
Offline
Full Pressure Turbo
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:35 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Fife
Car Model: 9-5 aero st3
rallyv4 wrote:
I believe I now have a poisoned central nervous system, which will degenerate until death.


what does your doctor say?

_________________
9-5 Aero Estate, V-Reg 2000
Stage 3 Noob'd


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:47 pm 
Offline
UKS Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 5860
Location: Bristol
Car Model: 234r 9-3 third
dang I just emptied about 4 giant tins of foam.... was outdoors though

mind you the number of things ive sprayed with no mask (mainly rattle cans) im probably in trouble anyway

_________________
99 9-3 se sport B234R
Jaguar XKR
Zafira VXR
Corsa 1.5td...eh...R


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:31 am 
Offline
UKSaabs Trader
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 9:53 pm
Posts: 15410
Location: Devon
so_hot wrote:
what does your doctor say?


rallyv4 wrote:
I have been to the doctors and they rang a toxicologist who said I carn't have had enough exposure as I would have had breathing difficulties and running eyes. The doctor then went down the line of it being an anxiety issue and wouldn't send me to anyone. I then had to pay to go to a private consultant in Neurology, who luckily has put me on his NHS books and I have had blood tests and an MRI. I believe these are clear as the doc can see the reports on the system. BUT there is no direct test for isocyanates or any treatment and I don't believe these chemicals leave the brain. By the time they start to effect you it's too late.
Its not just iso paints because people have suffered from Painters Syndrome that have never painted with this type of paint. This is where they get the shakes like Parkinson's and this can only be due to chemicals in the brain. All thinners can and will build up in the brain, they are fat seeking and hard to remove. I would not paint your car project with any car paint, budget in for a professional to do the work.

_________________
www.SAABits.com - helping to keep Saabs on the road
10% Discount for UKS members: enter code UKS2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:08 pm 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:22 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Derbyshire
Car Model: Saab 9-5
This has been one interesting read from the start, I'm now thankful I didn't undertake painting the sills on my porsche 944 myself last month using 2k paint I could of got all to easily!!
I really hope that you do not suffer to much and most symptoms are effectivly managed.

_________________
Car Air Conditioning Service And Regas for Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire.
http://www.auto-airtech.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:22 pm 
Offline
UKS Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:44 pm
Posts: 11953
Location: Bristol
Car Model: '99 9-3 ex-LPT '55 Diesel SW
For what it's worth I used a whole big can of expanding foam last week to try and insulate under the bath and get rid of the drafts. Would have considered it well ventilated and just sprayed away had I not read this thread. As it was I ran a length of hose pipe out the window and breathed through that. Felt like a bit of an idiot doing it but happy to have been encouraged to take these risks more seriously so thanks.

_________________
UKSaabs Fantasy Formula 1 Freak
Federation of Master Bodgers Accredited
T5 Tuner


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Bing [Bot], Calza, Google [Bot] and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

follow UKSaabs on Twitter



UKSaabs silhouette logo images by Mark Green www.greenphotos.com
"subsilver2" slightly bodged by UKSaabs for our own use.

:: Disclaimer ::
Comments posted here are the views of their individual authors and are not necessarily shared by the owners of this Web site.
Authors assume all responsibility for comments posted here.

UKSaabs The biggest and best privately owned UK based independent Saab forum for all SAAB enthusiasts.
Whilst we encourage our users to support our advertisers the site wishes to remain independent and therefore does not endorse any particular advertiser(s)
UKSaabs is not affiliated with Saab Cars UK or Saab Automobile AB