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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
Hi folks,

I've recently bought an 08-plate 2.0T manual aero convertible, it seems to drive reasonably well but it's always run like a bag of spanners from cold for the first minute or two. Recently it's been so bad that it's put the EML on. I read the codes with a tech 2 and it just says "random misfire detected" (code P0300 00).

I've then gone into the engine control and displayed the misfire/knock counters, which I reset mid-January (shortly after buying the car), so the counters for about 3 1/2 weeks of running were as follows:

cylinder 1 - misfire - 2115 counts
cylinder 2 - misfire - 66 counts
cylinder 3 - misfire - 20 counts
cylinder 4 - misfire - 1865 counts
cylinder 1 - knock - 910 counts
cylinder 2 - knock - 1214 counts
cylinder 3 - knock - 2148 counts
cylinder 4 - knock - 1437 counts

I checked that spark plugs, they are the correct type and are gapped to 1.0mm - I cleaned and refitted them. I then ordered some replacement (HT) coils and changed all 4 before starting the engine from cold, resetting the knock and misfire counters with the tech2.

Upon starting, it ran lumpy as before for the first minute or two and then was fine, a quick test drive didn't highlight any issues. Reading the knock & misfire counters after the test drive showed:

cylinder 1 - misfire - 222 counts
cylinder 2 - misfire - 2 counts
cylinder 3 - misfire - 0 counts
cylinder 4 - misfire - 232 counts
cylinder 1 - knock - 64 counts
cylinder 2 - knock - 50 counts
cylinder 3 - knock - 68 counts
cylinder 4 - knock - 53 counts

so ... am I worrying about nothing? I was wondering if it was to do with secondary air injection, but checked the electrical box in front of the battery and not only does it not have the fuse or relay for SAI, it also doesn't have the wiring for it either, so that's ruled out ...

I've also noted that fuel consumption seems a bit high (circa 24 MPG on the regular commute where a 9000 Aero gets 27-28MPG, but the convertible runs on normal unleaded instead of super in the 9k).

Is it worth changing the front lambda sensor - or does this sound about right for MPG and is the rough idle at startup just a characteristic of this engine (B207R)?

thanks :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:46 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Scotland
Car Model: 2005 9-5 Vector Sport 2.3t
There was a Saab software update for idle issues which stabilized the idle may just need software updating!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:39 am 
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Saab Nut
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
Ah - OK, ta - will have a look :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
T8 ECU software updated from 55566777 to 55574379, description: "Improvements of fuel trim adaptations to avoid engine dip" ... will see if it makes any difference tomorrow morning when the engine is started from cold again :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
firmware update made no difference, in the cold weather this morning the idle was so low you could hear it knocking - almost stalling. But again, only for the first minute or two then it was fine. Any other ideas? I'm thinking possibly throttle body ... ?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:41 am
Posts: 981
Location: Manchester
Car Model: MY 07 9-3 SC Vector
Hi
I'd say your consumption might be a bit low if your commute is a mix of town and A roads. My SID says 20.3 (1.8t auto 'vert) with heavy town use 5 miles/day. Although, I have got it up to 39.2 on a 50 mile m/way trip at 70 :) SAI was discontinued early on.

How many miles has the car done? Is the performance down any? As Will mentioned with my post, it might be a split hose or maybe cracked d/v diaphram (sp?)

Al

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9-3 SC 1.8t Vector, metallic black/cream, paddle shift, sports wheel, SPA & convenience pack


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 7783
Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
id go for a new set of plugs at 30 quid

just because its gapped and works most of the time dosnt mean its good all the time
are they correct ngk? the 93ss is fussy about brands

throttle body is easy to clean anyways right in front of you
and can be done on car if you switch ignition on and place a brick on the throttle pedal

kudos for buying four new coils ,they are not cheap !

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 7783
Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
p.s. am i assuming you have your own tech2 as well ?

if so do you want a new best friend?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
I got a set of coils second hand from fleabay, plus I knocked the seller's price down as I was buying all 4, from memory it was about £80 all in ... lol

Plugs have apparently been changed, they are the correct type (will confirm exactly what later - but it's what was in WIS) and look OK. WIS says gap of 0.9-1.0mm - tried changing it from 1.0 to 0.9 and it made things worse, so I changed it back ...

and yes I do have a tech2, so might be able to activate the throttle with that (I've already used it to manually activate the EGR valve on my TTiD) ...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 7783
Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
we had guy last week with running probs and new plugs...................


new plugs again cured it, the ngk come pre gapped to 1mm
only time mine came up with ecu light was on a start up (random misfires) and i put new plugs in

for 30 quid i really would try a new set of plugs mate

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
Cool - OK, will give that a go.

BTW, I have both versions of Saab tech 2 software, so can do both older and newer models. I've already successfully coded remotes to both 9000's and 9-3SS's with their respective software versions. Oh and done an engine ECU firmware update on 2 x 9-3's (this one and a TTiD) :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
Plugs are NGK P/N PFR6T-10G - found a seller on fleabay doing a set for £23 ...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Saab Nut
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
... I'm thinking the lambda sensor can be ruled out - passed its' MOT last week - CO emissions 0.00% on normal and fast idle, HC 2ppm (pass mark 200!)

Which says to me its running well (at least when warmed up) ...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
New plugs do seem to have made it better, but it still runs rough for the first few seconds until revs increase to approx. 1500, it continues to miss a bit for the first minute or two but then is OK. I'll have to get the tech 2 on it, reset the counters and sees what it says after a week or so. But at least it hasn't been bad enough to trip the ECU light :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
an update on this thread - plugs did help a bit, but the problem still persisted. After scanning through the forums, someone had a similar issue and the consensus of opinion seemed to be the throttle body getting gummed up. So today I removed the inlet pipe from the throttle body - it had some deposits, not what I'd expect to be enough to cause issue - but I cleaned it anyway.

During this, I used the option on the tech2 actuation menu for "throttle position" - the "info" says that the process cycles the throttle butterfly several times through its' movement range - if there is any erratic movement or juddering then the throttle body motor and/or potentiometer is suspect.

Lo and behold - the movement was erratic. So ... what's the recommended way forward - the book of lies says there is a gasket between the throttle body and inlet manifold which has to be replaced, so I'll need to order that first. Is it worth trying to strip the throttle body once removed - I was thinking possibly use switch cleaner on the potentiometer (if you can get at its' insides without destroying it) - is the (throttle body) motor likely to need lubrication - or is it more a case of replacing the entire unit.

I'm assuming it's never been replaced so far, so that makes it about 5 years old and has done 95k - is this the sort of age that they fail? If I need to replace, is a used one likely to be worth a try or should I be looking for a new one - any idea how much they go for?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 7783
Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
£96 three month warrenty

http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/used-throt ... dqpbq1da67

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
Hi Tony, I also spotted a new one from Neo Bros, but both of these state they are for MY 2003-2006, mine is MY 2008.

The part number for mine is different to the one on both of those items, too - EPC days mine should be P/N 93189207 - not sure what the difference is ... ?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
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Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
you need to phone them then mate
they break later salvage all the time ,and just cant list everything on the website
just the most common stuff or things they have many many units of

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 1945
Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-3 'vert, 2 x 9-5 V6 TiD
OK, ta - will try to call them tomorrow. No point in trying to clean/fix the one I've got then?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 7783
Location: south east london UK
Car Model: 9-3ss aero 2004my
well im not saying there isnt
but i replied to your question of how much for another unit :)

it may well be some soot making the actual bearing of the butterfly sticky hence the unsmooth action
if cleaning it please remember not to force the flap with your hand

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