UKSaabs

THE site for UK Saab people!
It is currently Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:29 am

All times are UTC



Forum rules


When you put a new thread up in the Workshop please put your car's year and model in the thread title, along with just a brief indicator of the problem.

Car Year - Car Model: Brief description of issue. EXAMPLE- 1999 9-3. Problems starting when hot.

Please also add as much information as you can about the problem, to your post.

This will help us to help you, without having to ask basic details such as what car you have.


Threads with non-compliant titles will be moved to The Pit Lane (in which no replies can be posted, but the OP can edit the thread - upon which the thread will be released to the workshop forum)

Nb. Generic thread titles for truly generic issues that genuinely are not model or variant specific (such as "how do I change the spring in an forge wastegate actuator") are acceptable

**The first 5 posts for new users require individual moderator approval (which they will only get it if they are in line the rules of the forum). Please be patient and allow time for that to happen, and avoid duplicate postings.**



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:10 pm 
Offline
Light Pressure Turbo
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 494
Location: Bristol, UK
Car Model: Stg 3 '09 9-5 Turbo Edition
Hi Guys.

Whilst in my local Kwik Fit getting my works van tyres replaced (leased van, no alternative), I noticed they had a Hunter 4 Wheel Alignment machine.

I stupidly got chatting with the young chap there who seemed to know what he was talking about, so I agree'd to pop back with my car (2009 Saab 9-5 Turbo Edition).

Anyway, £60 lighter, it seems all they have done is taken the first measurements, then turned the steering wheel to correct position for the second measurement. They charged me £60 and claimed there were no other adjustments they could make. Have I had my pants pulled down? Should I request a refund?

Note, the car is running on 18" Saab 9-3 Alloys with new Conti SC5's.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:13 pm 
Offline
UKS Encyclopædia G-M
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:39 am
Posts: 39935
Location: SW Herts
Car Model: 9-5 Aero est. 9-3 Carlsson
My Hirsch 18 inch wheels are the same 41mm offset as a 9-3 for 2003 on. Hirsch said that the suspension settings to be used on the 9-5 with their suspension are those for the Saab sport suspension which has 1 inch wheels and slightly higher suspension settings.

But you can make adjustments on the suspension. At the front there is only the tracking. If things are still out, you will be looking at bush or mounting failure.

At the rear the toe in and out can be adjusted by slackening off the front mounting plate on the trailing arm and moving it from side to side. You can also change the camber with shims, but usually camber errors are down to worn bushes. Usually the front trailing arm bush. So fix the bushes before you change the shims.

_________________
.
.
.
.
Everything will be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:53 am 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1851
Location: Peterborough UK
Car Model: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
Personally I would be asking for my money back as nothing has been changed.
Also your car will probably have sports suspension ..........so the tolerances used by the machine are probably incorrect too.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:23 pm
Posts: 1548
Location: Sussex
Car Model: '04 9-5 Aero est., '97 9K Aero
My local Hunter aligner charges £45, and the machine says only the front toe can be adjusted. Saab say the front camber and caster cannot be adjusted anyway.

I persuaded them to do the rear toe, prohibited by the program they use, and showed them how, which doubled the price because they’d ended up doing two toe corrections. Fair enough.....

You’ve had your front toe corrected, steering wheel centred, and values produced for the rest of the geometry so I don’t think you’ve been hosed apart from having suffered KwikFit pricing.

cardboardcutout


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:38 pm 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:42 pm
Posts: 51
Car Model: 9-3 2.0t Convertible
cjapeterborough wrote:
Personally I would be asking for my money back as nothing has been changed.
Also your car will probably have sports suspension ..........so the tolerances used by the machine are probably incorrect too.
Image

By the time uncertainly in measurement has been factored at the edge of tolerances the measurements could be considered pretty close anyway. Not saying its optional but we are speaking in terms of 'half a bee' s dick-hole' in one way of looking at it. Just do the sums with the specified tolerances and see if there is any overlap....

As a metrologist I could see there being a 1% uncertainty in the device anyway so splitting hairs infinitely is utterly fruitless.


There has been an adjustment though, whether you think that's worth the money or not is the OP's lookout.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:30 am 
Offline
Saab Nut

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1851
Location: Peterborough UK
Car Model: 9-5 Aero 2001,1.9TID x 2
Based on the OP he states "Anyway, £60 lighter, it seems all they have done is taken the first measurements, then turned the steering wheel to correct position for the second measurement"
So no adjustments were made and the differences before and after look insignificant...so yes he had his pants pulled down (in his own words).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:45 pm 
Offline
Put a SOC in it!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:48 pm
Posts: 21756
Location: Fliptop Towers, North Yorks...the flat bit.
Car Model: One or two...
Just avoid Kwik Fit-u-up. Find a decent independent with a Hunter rig or similar.

The one I use doesn't charge to check, only to adjust. Last time was £15 per adjustment made.

_________________
S6 Avant 4.0 V8T 450bhp/550Nm
9-5 Aero 600Nm FB3
900 T16S track hack
96V4s


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:42 pm 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:42 pm
Posts: 51
Car Model: 9-3 2.0t Convertible
You'd need to find something at £15 as a small business to not go out of business.

Hunter gear ain't especially cheap on a lease plan, it's an entirely worthy brand and no criticism is drawn here on its merits but 'fag packet' maths demonstrates as a utterly single-application capex you'd need to do more than offer free random checks to pay qualified staff a reasonable wage.

It's entirely dead kit for anything other than alignment, no garage offers alignment as much more than a cash-cow, whether it's a 'one man band' or a multinational.

There's nothing especially good or bad about Kwik-Fit, there's a host of quite poo independents out there too.

Ultimately the O/P knowingly instructed for a job for an agreed price, there was no foul play as I can see it, despite the forum armchair-mechanic pundits.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:54 pm 
Offline
UKS Addict

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 5379
Car Model: 95 Aero Turbo4
PostWizard wrote:

Ultimately the O/P knowingly instructed for a job for an agreed price, there was no foul play as I can see it,


You must see different things - original post does not say he agreed a price, only that he was charged. The fitters I use charge £36 per axle if a change is needed; and I do notice a significant improvement. If no change was made - the charge should've been zero.

PostWizard wrote:

despite the forum armchair-mechanic pundits.


suggest you wind your neck back in


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 am 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:42 pm
Posts: 51
Car Model: 9-3 2.0t Convertible
welshwizard wrote:
PostWizard wrote:

Ultimately the O/P knowingly instructed for a job for an agreed price, there was no foul play as I can see it,


You must see different things - original post does not say he agreed a price, only that he was charged. The fitters I use charge £36 per axle if a change is needed; and I do notice a significant improvement. If no change was made - the charge should've been zero.

PostWizard wrote:

despite the forum armchair-mechanic pundits.


suggest you wind your neck back in

Charmed :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:18 am 
Offline
UKS Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:05 pm
Posts: 6133
Location: Near Bicester Oxon
Car Model: XC70 & S60 D5 163s, both
I use KF's geocare deal and take our cars in every 3-4 months. I use 2 centres and they are both fine. I particularly like the remote display of the geo so you can see that the job's being done properly.

_________________
That bloke on the left. Yes him. No, I can't see him either.

Woah, hold on, Ezzard's back!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:22 am 
Offline
Active user

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:42 pm
Posts: 51
Car Model: 9-3 2.0t Convertible
bonefish blues wrote:
I use KF's geocare deal and take our cars in every 3-4 months. I use 2 centres and they are both fine. I particularly like the remote display of the geo so you can see that the job's being done properly.

I'm of the opinion they're 'good and bad' like everywhere else: but open on Sundays.

They have numpties like any garage, but not all their staff are fools.

Some of the fast fit centres I've personally used are great, ya' pays ya' money as the well trodden old adage goes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:07 am 
Offline
Full Pressure Turbo
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:51 pm
Posts: 820
Location: Edinburgh
Car Model: 9-5 2.3t Arc Estate
I went to KF with the XJ on Sunday. I had just renewed the rear track rods and arb drop links and it was obvious this had disturbed the tracking despite my best endeavours to make the track rod lengths match those taken off.

The check was free, and then the charges were advised and agreed before any work was done. £60 odds for the front which as you can imagine were well crusty having not been touched for years so needed heat and persuasion to adjust and £20 odds for the rear which were a doddle because they were brand new.

The final result was perfect and I didn't grudge the money for the more sure footed handling I now have.

_________________
Saab 9-5 2.3t Arc auto estate (Big Red)
Saab 9000 2.3 CDi S auto
Saab 9-5 2.0t Airflow
Jaguar XJ6


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:53 am 
Offline
UKS Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:05 pm
Posts: 6133
Location: Near Bicester Oxon
Car Model: XC70 & S60 D5 163s, both
Magrew wrote:
I went to KF with the XJ on Sunday. I had just renewed the rear track rods and arb drop links and it was obvious this had disturbed the tracking despite my best endeavours to make the track rod lengths match those taken off.

The check was free, and then the charges were advised and agreed before any work was done. £60 odds for the front which as you can imagine were well crusty having not been touched for years so needed heat and persuasion to adjust and £20 odds for the rear which were a doddle because they were brand new.

The final result was perfect and I didn't grudge the money for the more sure footed handling I now have.

...and you'll save that in tyre wear rate alone.

_________________
That bloke on the left. Yes him. No, I can't see him either.

Woah, hold on, Ezzard's back!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:30 pm 
Offline
Saab Nut
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:23 pm
Posts: 1548
Location: Sussex
Car Model: '04 9-5 Aero est., '97 9K Aero
cjapeterborough wrote:
Based on the OP he states "Anyway, £60 lighter, it seems all they have done is taken the first measurements, then turned the steering wheel to correct position for the second measurement"
So no adjustments were made and the differences before and after look insignificant...so yes he had his pants pulled down (in his own words).


An alternative viewpoint:-

According to the printouts adjustment was made, to the front toe, and OP states the steering wheel was centred (important on a 9-5 isn’t it?). Front caster and camber and rear camber are only adjustable in ways beyond the abilities of KF. The software the Hunter thing uses states the rear toe cannot be adjusted (although we know it can. I had to persuade and instruct on mine). So all possible adjustments were made within the scope of the Hunter database.

Even if the car had been spot on to start with, i don’t think it’s unreasonable for the garage to charge for the assessment, in much the same way as a tech 2 hookup is often charged for even if nothing is adjusted. The systems cost lots of £ And the garage has its investment to recoup.

The OP now knows how twisted the geometry is, which he wouldn’t otherwise, so is in a position to consider getting it straightened.

cardboardcutout


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:37 am 
Offline
Put a SOC in it!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:48 pm
Posts: 21756
Location: Fliptop Towers, North Yorks...the flat bit.
Car Model: One or two...
PostWizard wrote:
You'd need to find something at £15 as a small business to not go out of business.


I think you're misunderstanding me. So a 9-5 with front and rear toe = 4 adjustments = £60, or a 9-3ss with those plus rear camber = 6 adjustments = £90.

Seems a reasonable way to recoup the lease costs, works out at roughly £120 an hour assuming it all goes without major hitches (eg broken camber cam bolts etc).

The place I go to is North Eastern, an independent with several branches across the region. Good guys at the three I've used (York, Harrogate and Guisborough). Unlike the under-trained ill-educated rock apes they employ at most Kwikish-Its. At North Eastern they will set it up on the rig, do the initial baseline check then come and discuss with you what's needed and agree the work/price. I've also had them fail to complete an adjustment (knackered or seized camber bolt on a 9-3) and not charge me for it. Fair to their customers, so I keep coming back.

York Kwikish-It tried to force a trolley jack under the skirts of FB1 once and I complained, took the car away and never used them or their chain again (wasn't the first bad experience with them).

_________________
S6 Avant 4.0 V8T 450bhp/550Nm
9-5 Aero 600Nm FB3
900 T16S track hack
96V4s


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mike9000Aero, razani67 and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

follow UKSaabs on Twitter



UKSaabs silhouette logo images by Mark Green www.greenphotos.com
"subsilver2" slightly bodged by UKSaabs for our own use.

:: Disclaimer ::
Comments posted here are the views of their individual authors and are not necessarily shared by the owners of this Web site.
Authors assume all responsibility for comments posted here.

UKSaabs The biggest and best privately owned UK based independent Saab forum for all SAAB enthusiasts.
Whilst we encourage our users to support our advertisers the site wishes to remain independent and therefore does not endorse any particular advertiser(s)
UKSaabs is not affiliated with Saab Cars UK or Saab Automobile AB