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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Would a leak in the intake cause issues, or not so much as it is a MAP not MAF based air metering system?

Does it just need a Damn good thrashing to adapt?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Still keeping a watch on this issue. The last full to empty gave 29.7 mpg. Check engine light just came on a few times but would generally disappear with a restart. Removed lambda to have a look at the bulb- it was pale GREEN !!
The photo shows an old lambda with what i consider to be the correct khaki colour, and the new one I have just removed.
I will continue to monitor the situation
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Billj thread on his problems with emissions has sent me back to my MOT certificates to see if there is a clue to my own issues. To recap, I get occasional " check engine light " which frequently goes off of it's own accord and nearly always after a restart. It is off now and has been for the last 100 mls. I tend to ignore it.
I was suspicious that I was running a tad rich on cruise that ultimately fouled the lambda but measuring tank full to empty over the last 3 fills I have returned c.30mpg actual ( last one was 30.6 ) so doesn't seem too amiss. When last on the dyno the operator checked the AFR on cruise, and if anything it was a tad lean. He said the lambda was working fine. I have a new genuine lambda fitted and new IAT so that rules that out.
My MOT emissions results at fast idle since 2013 have been;
HC; 153/52/25/14/36
CO: 0.299/0.122/0/0.007/0.04
Reading from 2017 back to 2013. The 2017 result is my full stg 5 setup, the 2016 result is my stg 3 with Albert exhaust and 200 CEL cat. The 2015 result is my JT stg 3 with 400 CEL, as are the remainder. The lambda is nicely within spec all times (1.015 in 2017 )
I am just within spec on CO but is that because of the race cat? May I have an incomplete combustion issue ? Can I be running lower EGT than normal such that the lambda is out of its comfort zone and if that's the case what can I do about it? I think for starters, and cos it is cheap, i'll try a set of BCPR 8s.
Any comments welcome


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Location: Queenborough, Kent
Car Model: 9k, 9-5 Aero & a Jaaag
mine has a JT 3" turbo back system with what was a sports cat, however due to boost control issues that melted ... I think the replacement which an exhaust specialist fitted might have been a race cat, because at a recent MOT it failed initially on CO too high on the fast idle test. However, it'd been sat still for a few minutes after driving there whilst the tester checked out the suspension, etc.

A quick warm up of circa 2-2.5k RPM for a minute or two and it passed. Was yours fully up to temperature when the test was done?

But the HC reading on yours seems a bit high? Mine was 20 ... looking back through the old MOTs the HC reading on fast idle has always been below 50 other than one test several years ago (before I had the car) where it was 123. Could that be a sign of an issue perhaps?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Billj's thread gave me some ideas. I have been down to a local MOT stn and chatting to the guys they said they would do an emmissions test for free. I gave them £10 for their beer fund.
Result would have meant an MOT fail. It passed on all HC & CO emissions on fast/second/natural idle but the Lambda was high.
Fast idle; CO 0.015 : HC 81 ; Lambda 1.262
second : CO 0.013 ; HC94 : Lambda 1.308
Natural : CO 0.002
Removed Lamda and same " green colour " as before.
It's a new genuine Lambda so before I fit another I need to look elsewhere .
I will start by fitting new exhaust and turbo gaskets and remaking all the exhaust joints then back to the mot stn. The guys are happy to give me any number of " free " tests. A high Lambda normally denotes rich running and/or air leaks letting in oxygen. I dont see it is running rich, the HC/CO figures are fine and the mpg is ok. Dont know why the Lambda has suddenly jumped. The same lambda was 1.015 at the MOT( passed) in August


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:34 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
A high Lambda normally denotes rich running and/or air leaks letting in oxygen.

High lambda indicates *lean* running. You really want to get it sorted out if you're hoping to use the performance as it may be dangerously lean under load.
Either Trionic is underestimating the air mass or it is mapped to run lean (or the injectors are . The air mass is calculated from the manifold pressure, intake air temperature and, I think, throttle position. I have cured high lambda in the past by replacing the Intake Air Temperature sensor. You might want to look at the other two sensors as well.

I would discount the map if you believe it has been running correctly in the past with the same map and the same hardware.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:11 pm 
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BillJ wrote:
High lambda indicates *lean* running.

Absolutely right-my mistake. All very confusing because under WOT on the dyno the AFR is 11.5 which is good. So the mpg is ok, the AFR is ok, the plugs look ok, and I have a new IAT fitted. It's a relief I have found an MOT stn who will work with me so i'll try a few things and have it tested. I am pretty sure that , in reality, the combustion is fine irrespective the lambda playing up. Incidentally the check engine light is off and only came on once briefly in the last 400mls, then went off on restart.
Where is throttle position sensor and what does it look like? Can it be checked?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:10 am 
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The TPS is the black thing on the throttle body with a 3-wire connector on it. To be honest, my first port of call is always the IAT sensor in the delivery pipe from intercooler to throttle body.
Diagnostic info here, including sensor measurements:
http://townsendimports.com/Web/Trionic/trionicpg1.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:44 am 
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HC readings seem a bit high to me, I've gone back over the old MOTs for my 9000 and only once were they over 50 (max was about 35, lowest 7) - this was before I had the car, and going by the rest of the figures I'm guessing the test wasn't actually done on the 9000 ...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 9000 aero
This isn’t going to help but I had the similar problem quite a few years ago. Slightly different in that cel light for lambda didn’t come and go, it came on and stayed on for months. Tried all the usual fixes but nothing worked. Then one day it went off and never come back until last week.

The car has been laid up last few months as I make some changes. On first start up last Wednesday cel is on count the flashes its lambda. So check everything is connected and even change Lambda but it remained on. Friday start up again and bring up to temp wait for fan to kick in all looks good apart from lambda cel, but then engine revs start to rise slowly of own accord all the way to 2200/2300 rpm I have a quick check of vac hoses and look for possible air leak. The car has been running at those revs for a couple of minutes look and manifold it is glowing bright red clearly visible through the wrap....

Further investigation needed


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:06 pm 
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The saga continues,I have;
Dismantled the exhuast from back box to cylinder head and rebult very carefully to ensure everything pulled up square. Slight distortion on fabricated manifold face in so far I could get a 0.3mm feeler under 1& 4 when placed on a flat surface. This should not be a problem but I fitted a new manifold gasket and torqued the centre down first before moving to the edges. The cat was clear
Fitted new turbo gasket
Removed and cleaned throttle body. Fitted new Saab throttle position sensor
Removed and cleaned IAC
Fitted new Saab IAT
Fitted new set of NGK plugs
Refitted the Saab Lambda which is fairly new
cleaned air filter
At the MOT stn they checked emissions. OK except lambda 1.3 therefore I had achieved nothing except to eliminate a few possibilities
Changed Lambda for a brand new one with same result.
Stuck for the moment. I will try and check the cat with a temp sensor, also the manifold as I am suspicious I am running cool. I know a high lambda can denote lean running but, if anything, i think I am running rich. The inside of the d/p is an even black colour which coats your finger when you wipe it round.
Any more ideas to check? Perhaps it is the fuel map? Can't be the lambda but may be the heater wiring in the car harness- Lambda wiring is black/grey /white/white. Which is the heater, the 2 white ones ?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Continuing with the diagnostics. With my new infra red thermometer, after warming up the engine with a gentle 10ml cruise ( no more than 3000 rpm }The header temps were 400-420 C. No massive difference between them so no particular cylinder playing up. Temp at lambda boss was 260 C. Great for the turbo but lambda should be min. 300. Odd readings down at the cat. 90 C before and 131 after so cat is doing something but way outside its optimal temp range. Data from other guys would be interesting for comparison. It is critical to take the reading on each header at the same distance from the head. Moving a few inches changes things quite a bit. Also. I have ceramic coated headers which may impact the reading.
Car still goes like stink. Check engine light currently off, this out of spec lambda is a new thing however. It was fine at the mot in August and that was after I had gone to stg 5. Bit puzzling. It's not the car lambda they are measuring of course, they read from one stuck in the end of the exhaust but i have to solve it before the next mot.
Sorted the wiring. The 2 white wires are the heater, the grey is earth and the black is the control. There is a fuse (28) on the heater circuit but that is ok.The heater in the lambda is reading 6 ohm so that seams ok. The only sensor not changed that is part of the lambda control would appear to be the CPS which is still the original- should that be investigated?
What fun


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Car is in at bodyshop at moment so not driving but like a dog with a bone I still have my teeth in this issue. Check engine light currently off and car seems to drive fine. Issue now twofold. Intermittent check engine light and now a new one. On the last couple of checks with my friendly mot station the Lambda is out of spec. It was fine at the mot last August.
When I get the car back next step will be to talk to the mot guys and see if they will run a test with their Lambda stuck straight in the end of the d/p with the cat section removed. I dont think the cat is poisened but at least it will eliminate that .
If the lambda is still out not sure where to go. Perhaps an AFR plot at cruise, is this something the mot stn could do? I have a block tester so will check the integrity of the headgasket. Anyone with any other suggestions/comments ? When there is a problem with the CPS is it like a switch, it either works or it doesn't? Can it "slip" a bit ?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Been sdelined by sorting out my "incident" but back on the case now. Have just been playing with an ARM wideband kit. Warmed up the engine then just stuck the lambda in the tailpipe. AFR of 14.6 ( lambda 1.003 ) both on idle and fast idle. This is fine but based on the previous test was expecting lambda 1.3.
I have a boss just after the cat so put the wideband in there. Same result so can conclude no air leaks from cat back. Next, dropped the cat from the bottom of the d/p and put the lambda in the end. When finally settled it was reading 14.8 but what a racket so didn't leave it too long.
Haven't a clue what is going on but those numbers are ok. At the next oppurtunity i will get Albert 666 to weld in a boss for me ahead of the cat so i can see better what the cat is doing.
Can i get any useful data by replacing the narrow band at the top of the d/p with the wideband? I would lose the ecu control but would that be an issue at idle?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:12 am 
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The CTS Coolant Temp Sensor (is that what you mean by CPS) will make things a bit funny (ask Billj)

Also, i'd suggest a 10 mile run isn't enough to properly warm everything up. At least 30 mins to be sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:23 pm 
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I have a new coolant sensor fitted. Only sensor I haven't changed is the crank position sensor ( CPS ) but car drives fine so don't think that can have any bearing. I plan to temporarily fit the wideband in the top of the d/p in place of the std lambda. If it still shows a lambda of around 14.8 it will look like nothing is the matter with the way the engine performs. Just whipped out the plugs and they seem ok. Engine light currently out but have just disconnected the battery and set the trip to zero. Lets see how far I go before it comes on again. Still suspicious it is a tad richjudging from the internal condition of the exhaust so cant explain why I had a couple of high lambdas a few weeks back. Seems ok now.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:50 pm 
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razani67 wrote:
Seems ok now.

Spoke too soon. Just been out for a drive. After 29 miles check engine light came on. Stopped then restarted and light stayed off. Drove 5mls home and inserted wideband in the exhaust. Off the scale at + 18 afr so have now duplicated what they got at the MOT stn. What is going on?.
I seem to have a time related/intermittent issue. I will disconnect the battery and take readings again with the wideband tomorrow. Any more ideas fellas?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:49 pm 
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only thing that enters my mind is that the engine will be running open loop until it's up to temperature - ignoring the lambda and therefore possibly masking an issue with it - and/or its' wiring ... ?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:38 pm 
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At idle and cruise it should be in closed loop, i.e using signal input from the lamda.We know from the dyno that the afr is good on WOT when the lamda is out of the loop. If there is a problem around the lamda how is it the afr was ok when I took readings this afternoon. I took the readings when it had been idling for 15-20 mins and temp gauge was well up. How long does it take to come to operating temp? In any case when running " cold" the ecu enriches the mixture so should get lower afr under those circumstances. Dont think it is the lamda itself because I have swapped with a brand new Bosch one. A physical circuit board problem in the ecu or associated wiring does look a possibility as you suggest. Why does it take so long to throw a check engine light?. Might have to look at a way of bringing the wideband gauge into the car so I can monitor as I go along.
Fired up the car this morning. Check engine light out. Left it on idle. Initial afr was 11 which after a minute stabilised at 14.7 so the ecu cold start function is working. Left car idling for 45 min. No change in afr and check engine light did not reappear. Infra red thermometer registered 230 deg. at top of d/p after 20 mins when coolant temp was normal. I guess control was in open loop the whole time so the lambda was not doing anything. I thought it should switch from open to closed loop when up to temp. I didn't observe anything. Everything I read on lambda says it needs an operating temp. of 300 degs so perhaps it is out of its zone at 230 ( I dont suppose its own heater will reach + 300 deg ).
Even though it is a brand new Bosch lambda it is beginning to look suspicious. The lambda is no longer available from Saab. When I contacted Bosch direct and quoted the Bosch no. of my old lambda they said it had been superceded and sold me the supercession. I wonder if that can be the issue.
I'll get out my old analogue multimeter and run some checks on the Lambda


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Brilliant diagnostic tool the wdeband , everyone should have one.
This morning after warming up afr was 14.7 and no check light.
Disconnected the lambda and it gradually leaned out to 17/18.
Reconnected the lambda and stayed the same.
Switched off/on, check light out and back to 14.7
Disconnected/reconnected battery and went for a drive. After 13 miles and 1/2 hour light came on. Checked with wideband and afr 18+. Disconnected lambda and no change. Switched off/on, light out and back to 14.7
Conclusion I draw is that light denotes Lambda out altogether, i.e. in open loop, it then seems to go lean. I have no idea what causes it to go open loop when it is hot and should be closed. Is there any way for me to monitor open/close loop or is this only with Tech 2? I may not be going closed loop at all.
I now have a dedicated earth on the lambda. Fitted a brand new Bosch 3 wire Lambda which should be fine with the dedicated earth. Gauge was hovering around 13.5 for a couple of minutes then suddenly jumped to 17/18 and light came on. Doesn't look like the lambda but something amiss when it tries to go closed loop. Still leaves a question mark around the time taken to trigger the fault. It surely doesn't take 30mls to get hot enough to switch to closed loop? Something inhibiting the switch ??
Loads of data but no solution. Further ideas anyone?


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