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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Posts: 320
Location: Chasetown, West Midlands
Car Model: 1990 900i 2 door
The other thread on what people plan to do with their classics long term set me thinking.
When a classic saab gets to a certain age, it has the potential to be a "survivor". That means, barring an accident, the car could last for ever.
A requirement is probably that it is kept in a garage, since that brings the corrosion rate down to a minimum. It may not need to be in a running condition, maybe. It does need stability in ownership, because it needs to complete the transition from old car to valuable classic without passing through the "cheap runner" stage.
There also must be a standard for the overall condition of the car.
Just thinking...
Geoff


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:32 pm
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Location: Bath/ Dublin
Car Model: 8V-V4
mrmosky wrote:
There also must be a standard for the overall condition of the car.
If a car is not in "barn find" condition you might as well scrap it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:01 pm
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Location: Chasetown, West Midlands
Car Model: 1990 900i 2 door
melle wrote:
mrmosky wrote:
There also must be a standard for the overall condition of the car.
If a car is not in "barn find" condition you might as well scrap it.


I don't agree. At some point in time, a car will be worth restoring if the condition is reasonable, since the value of the finished car will be worth more than the cost of restoration. Think of a Sonett, or a two stroke 96. They are worth a lot in almost any condition. The trick is getting a car through to the time when that will apply. And it is not always the best condition cars that survive. When 900 turbo's were cheap, a lot of cars may have been bought by "boy racers", who would drive them into the ground.
Geoff


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:53 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Notts/Derby border
Car Model: 1992 SAAB 900S three door.
Not sure I'm directly answering you question here Geoff, or just waffling a bit, but anyway.....
Firstly, I don't have a garage, nor scope to build one.
Consequently, my car is out on my drive, in all weathers, all year round.

I don't use the car every day, (I don't need a vehicle for work) but I do drive it every weekend, mostly just for the pleasure of it.
In other words, I'll find a reason to go out, just to use the SAAB !
If the roads are recently salted I might avoid doing so occasionally.
Other than that.
I try to keep it in tip top condition, with regular servicing, cleaning, waxoyling etc.
Any mechanical issues are dealt without delay.
I've had one or two cosmetic bits and bobs attended to, as did the previous owner.
So, there is 'a standard' of condition that I intend to keep it to, whilst still using and enjoying it.
I wouldn't want the car to be concourse even if I could afford to make it so, as I'd then be afraid to use it.

On this basis, theoretically, my SAAB could last forever.
However, the way the future's looking, I doubt that internal combustion engined cars, driven by humans will be permitted onto the roads that far into the future.
In summation, perhaps it's better to 'Use Em' Before We Lose Em'
What was the question again ? :?

Steve.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:44 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:01 pm
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Location: Chasetown, West Midlands
Car Model: 1990 900i 2 door
Steve, I agree with you that your car is potentially a survivor (I've seen it), even if not garaged. And I also agree that it is better to use and get some enjoyment out of them. It is very risky to try to predict what might be a future value of any modern classic.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have an attitude where the car is kept in good condition with a view of it lasting forever, then it could. On the other hand, if the owner has the attitude that it will eventually be a scrapper, and so may as well get the maximum use out of it, then that will almost guarantee the car will not be a survivor.

And if it is to be a survivor, then the owner becomes more of a custodian, since he will not be the last owner.
Geoff


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Location: Bath/ Dublin
Car Model: 8V-V4
mrmosky wrote:
I don't agree.
Was only kidding. ;)

mrmosky wrote:
At some point in time, a car will be worth restoring if the condition is reasonable, since the value of the finished car will be worth more than the cost of restoration. Think of a Sonett, or a two stroke 96. They are worth a lot in almost any condition
Most are still worth much less than the cost of a high quality restoration, which is good as it keeps the investors away from the scene. 90s, 900NGs etc. will almost certainly never be a viable investment (thank god, the sooner they're forgotten the better!)

mrmosky wrote:
The trick is getting a car through to the time when that will apply. And it is not always the best condition cars that survive. When 900 turbo's were cheap, a lot of cars may have been bought by "boy racers", who would drive them into the ground.
The answer is to buy up as many "future classics" as your wallet allows, store them in a leaking shed and in 10 years time stick them on eBay 'em as "barn finds". ;)

I'm afraid I just don't share the preoccupation with eternity many classic car owners seem to have, dust to dust and that's fine with me.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:14 pm
Posts: 626
Location: Chorley, Lancs, UK
melle wrote:
mrmosky wrote:
There also must be a standard for the overall condition of the car.
If a car is not in "barn find" condition you might as well scrap it.


Have you seen some of the 'barn finds' on eBay? Some you just need a dustpan and brush to sweep up what remains of them.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Argyll
Car Model: 99
Interesting question. Something that strikes me about Saabs is how undervalued they are -by the masses, not us lot -compared to the more 'obvious' choices, such as Ford Escorts and the like -mass production and mass exposure=mass consumption, methinks, and so many people remember old Fords/Rovers/MGs/whatever that the demand, and prices, are high enough now to ensure survival of the remaining examples. Older Saabs are the kind of car that need enthusiasts to survive, and it seems that by default, most older Saabs are in enthusiast hands by now. Does that make them survivors? Perhaps it does, regardless of condition...

My 99 possibly comes close to what I think you are alluding to. It is not perfect but is splendidly solid and unmolested, has done very low mileage for many years, and is garaged. With a little remedial attention and ongoing care it should last a long time yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:42 pm
Posts: 37
Car Model: 9-5 aero HOT
SAABARAMA 900 wrote:
Not sure I'm directly answering you question here Geoff, or just waffling a bit, but anyway.....
Firstly, I don't have a garage, nor scope to build one.
Consequently, my car is out on my drive, in all weathers, all year round.


Try a carcoon ?
I'll admit it can look like Micheal Jackson has taken up residence, mine are out the back waiting for me to build a garage (7 years later..)
but they keep the car in tip top condition.
I've left cars in them literally for years and they are as good coming out as going in.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:17 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Lincoln
Car Model: 9-5 estate 900 8v 95 van
I’ve always thought of a survivor as a car that is largely in an unmolested condition but still in use. Obviously some work has to take place for ongoing use. So our van is definitely not a survivor as it is really heavily modified,rebuilt and has had a respray. Our flat front 900 however is a survivor as it has had a bit of paint on one quarter, some mechanical work but is largely original.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:53 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Notts/Derby border
Car Model: 1992 SAAB 900S three door.
95dave wrote:
SAABARAMA 900 wrote:
Not sure I'm directly answering you question here Geoff, or just waffling a bit, but anyway.....
Firstly, I don't have a garage, nor scope to build one.
Consequently, my car is out on my drive, in all weathers, all year round.


Try a carcoon ?
I'll admit it can look like Micheal Jackson has taken up residence, mine are out the back waiting for me to build a garage (7 years later..)
but they keep the car in tip top condition.
I've left cars in them literally for years and they are as good coming out as going in.


Interesting idea Dave, but unfortunately my parking is at the front of the house.
I'm not sure what something that exotic would invite from some of the skallywags around here.

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 4190
Location: West Sussex
Car Model: 9-3 9000 Aero 96 V4 Yamaha FJR
What makes a classic into a survivor?

One that is stripped down properly and fairly regularly to stop or slow down rust. If you still have original underseal on a 40 year old car get it off. It WILL be hiding damp/rusty areas despite how good it looks. It is not effective simply wire brushing down rust and slapping on red oxide or acid convertors, you have to take it back to very near bare metal, you have to spend time digging out old underseal from the seams etc. It is a good few days work if not weeks.

So many vehicles are just neglected until rust visibly starts coming through and the job is a lot worse than if it had been checked and addressed years ago. The owners have just spent money and time on exciting things like wheels, carbs, exhausts, trim etc, get bored after four years and pass it on with rust bubbling through before it gets too bad to sell and lose a couple of grand, Ref Ebay!!

Some are taken to a bloke for treatment which is done in a couple of days with a thick layer of underseal on hiding the poorly treated rusty areas and trapping in moisture from the inevitable tiny air pockets. In five years time that festering damp mess has made more damage than if it was just left in the first place... Despite how good it looks from the outside. Doing it all again with all that muck on takes longer as it all has to come off again :roll: Easy money for the guy that has just sprayed on thick bitumen from a distance under a lift in twenty minutes! This is why clear underseal products are finally becoming popular, you can keep an eye on the treated areas :wink:

Selling a very good original car to a buyer who will look after it properly is the key. Mechanicals can always be sorted, it's the body and cost to repair that kills cars. Mine will run around with an electric motor in it by my kids one day.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:59 pm
Posts: 557
Location: Herefordshire
Car Model: 900i '87 96V4 '72 E30 Alvis
I'm currently going through the painful process of stripping all of the old underseal from a 96. If you've never done this you would be amazed at how much rust can hide underneath underseal that looks superficially good.

My definition of a survivor (rightly or wrongly) would be a largely original and unmolested car capable of regular use, which has been well maintained and has what antique dealers would call 'a nice patina' rather than a shiny new paint job


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 4190
Location: West Sussex
Car Model: 9-3 9000 Aero 96 V4 Yamaha FJR
I feel your pain Greg :lol: I don,t know what is worse, old hard and dry underseal or two year old sticky thick underseal which I have to get off an old Merc over the next couple of days with most of it leading on my head :( The rust underneath is a prime example of what I was talking about. Wish I could put up a picture for you, it was literally done two years, looks great until sheets of it come off with a simple scraper with layers of wet rust coming off with it :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 39632
Location: NETTLEHAM, LINCOLNSHIRE
Car Model: 99GL, Fiat 500 & Volvo V70
greg124 wrote:
My definition of a survivor (rightly or wrongly) would be a largely original and unmolested car capable of regular use, which has been well maintained and has what antique dealers would call 'a nice patina' rather than a shiny new paint job


This would be my interpretation as well, a car should be used.
If its not it fits into one of the following rather than a survivor, awaiting or undergoing restoration, an investment, trailer queen or museum piece.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Posts: 1586
I have never rebuilt a car that hasn't cost more than its worth. I rebuilt them because that was what I was interested in doing. Its daft seeing any Saab and most classics as an investment, they cost a lot of money to keep in the condition you bought them in if you wish to use them. If you don't use them they suffer and need recommissioning.
The only cars I have that have been good financially where the older cars my dad bought for about £200 when they where not worth anything, they probably took 30years to gain their value and there was no guarantee at the time that they would go up in value. I haven't seen anything go up as much in value from such a low price since, so its not a good investment when it takes 30 years to get there, assuming you have lucked on the right car. The only short term low return is to flip a car for a few grand here and there.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Location: Bath/ Dublin
Car Model: 8V-V4
Completely agree with rallyv4, lots of affordable fun to be had with old Saabs though!

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