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 Post subject: The Council Gestapo ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo
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A chap who I work with was recently handed a fixed penalty fine (£75) by a local council warden for flicking his cigarette ash on the path he was walking on. Note, this is cigarette ash, completely bio-degradeable and pretty much invisible after it reached the ground.

What is this country coming to ?? I think a clear definition of what constitutes litter is called for here, I noted that a lady is facing a fine of £2500 for not paying the fixed penalty for a similar offence !!

Bonkers if you ask me, what do you think ???

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Technically its still littering.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:27 pm 
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9000Parts wrote:
Technically its still littering.


Actually I don't think it is, I did manage to find a definition written somewhere that stated that the dropping or throwing of 'whatever' had to cause defacement, either temporary or permanent, so I would challenge that on that basis. Technically or not, its ridiculous in my view.

And here is an extract from Haringay council FAQ's, "I can’t put my cigarette end in the bin as there is a danger it will catch fire"

Council response - "Smokers are responsible for ensuring that they completely extinguish their cigarettes before placing them in the bin. Most bins have stubbing plates provided." ....... and in doing so will definitely drop some (hot) ash in the process !!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Limited sympathy as he was smoking in a public place*. Does seem draconian though.

*which I know is not illegal, but should be.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:24 pm 
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masonmjs wrote:
9000Parts wrote:
Technically its still littering.


Actually I don't think it is, I did manage to find a definition written somewhere that stated that the dropping or throwing of 'whatever' had to cause defacement, either temporary or permanent, so I would challenge that on that basis. Technically or not, its ridiculous in my view.

And here is an extract from Haringay council FAQ's, "I can’t put my cigarette end in the bin as there is a danger it will catch fire"

Council response - "Smokers are responsible for ensuring that they completely extinguish their cigarettes before placing them in the bin. Most bins have stubbing plates provided." ....... and in doing so will definitely drop some (hot) ash in the process !!


Bit tricky trying to define what is and isnt something as it always leads to edge cases. The easiest way to define something is make it black and white. In the case of litter, anything that is dropped or thrown and that wouldnt normally be expected to be in the place the object landed is litter.

If you start saying but this should be excluded, that doesnt count then how and where do you draw the line?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:30 pm 
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9000Parts wrote:
In the case of litter, anything that is dropped or thrown and that wouldnt normally be expected to be in the place the object landed is litter.



On this account, if you were to cough, or sneeze, and a bit of phlegm exits your mouth and lands on the ground, you should be fined £75 for littering (as, by definition, your phlegm wouldn't normally be expected be there?), agreed?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:36 pm 
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9000Parts wrote:
If you start saying but this should be excluded, that doesnt count then how and where do you draw the line?



By that logic hedge & grass clippings, fireworks, oil & coolant leaks, gravel picked up in your tyres from a driveway, plus just about everything else would also need to be included.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Shalien wrote:
9000Parts wrote:
In the case of litter, anything that is dropped or thrown and that wouldnt normally be expected to be in the place the object landed is litter.



On this account, if you were to cough, or sneeze, and a bit of phlegm exits your mouth and lands on the ground, you should be fined £75 for littering (as, by definition, your phlegm wouldn't normally be expected be there?), agreed?


Are you going to pick it up for evidence? This still exposes the problem of defining what is and isnt acceptable. If you sneezed and that inadvertant bit of phlegm landed on a person there is grounds for an assault charge even though its not intentional.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:09 pm 
Fireworks definitely, I'd have them banned for causing needless suffering to everything from wildlife, domestic pets, livestock to veterans with PTSD

Put it this way you need training and regular licencing to own any firearm near enough in this country, yet anyone over 18 can buy as many pyrotechnic explosive devices as they want and make any animals' lives an utter misery for days and weeks on end, fill the hospitals every halloween, 5th november, new years (and more as the years go by) with serious burns and worse.

Wonder how much the fireworks industry "donates" to political parties?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:47 pm 
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The public are far, far too compliant when it comes to the likes of council 'wardens' handing out fines based on their own interpretation of legislation. How would they be able to issue anything enforceable to someone who declines to provide a name and address? I'd tell them to jog on.

Pete

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:57 pm 
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If it discourages people from smoking in public and spreading their stench around, I'm all for it. The smell of cigarettes, AND many of the sweet, sickly vapes can be nauseating.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:15 pm 
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masonmjs wrote:
A chap who I work with was recently handed a fixed penalty fine (£75) by a local council warden for flicking his cigarette ash on the path he was walking on. Note, this is cigarette ash, completely bio-degradeable and pretty much invisible after it reached the ground.

What is this country coming to ?? I think a clear definition of what constitutes litter is called for here, I noted that a lady is facing a fine of £2500 for not paying the fixed penalty for a similar offence !!

Bonkers if you ask me, what do you think ???


Ciggy butt, fair enough. Ash, is off the scale ridiculous. It blows away to nothing instantly (and is a lot less dirty than having dog leak all over my car tyres and lamp post/wall, or next doors recycling blowing all over my drive).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:17 pm 
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gbn wrote:
If it discourages people from smoking in public and spreading their stench around, I'm all for it. The smell of cigarettes, AND many of the sweet, sickly vapes can be nauseating.


Maybe that is how pedestrians and cyclists feel about your (and my) exhaust fumes.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:29 pm 
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milleplod wrote:
The public are far, far too compliant when it comes to the likes of council 'wardens' handing out fines based on their own interpretation of legislation. How would they be able to issue anything enforceable to someone who declines to provide a name and address? I'd tell them to jog on.

Pete


Same here.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:31 pm 
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masonmjs wrote:
A chap who I work with was recently handed a fixed penalty fine (£75) by a local council warden for flicking his cigarette ash on the path he was walking on. Note, this is cigarette ash, completely bio-degradeable and pretty much invisible after it reached the ground.

What is this country coming to ?? I think a clear definition of what constitutes litter is called for here, I noted that a lady is facing a fine of £2500 for not paying the fixed penalty for a similar offence !!

Bonkers if you ask me, what do you think ???


I hope he doesn't pay it and contests it. Never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:09 pm 
Steve 1550 wrote:
masonmjs wrote:
A chap who I work with was recently handed a fixed penalty fine (£75) by a local council warden for flicking his cigarette ash on the path he was walking on. Note, this is cigarette ash, completely bio-degradeable and pretty much invisible after it reached the ground.

What is this country coming to ?? I think a clear definition of what constitutes litter is called for here, I noted that a lady is facing a fine of £2500 for not paying the fixed penalty for a similar offence !!

Bonkers if you ask me, what do you think ???


I hope he doesn't pay it and contests it. Never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.


He'd either win or have the book chucked at him, remember councils are lawyered up (funded by US)
You think thats bad, you should try being a council tenant...break wind the wrong direction and they send some gestapo wannabe around to read the riot act, then again, the last time they tried something I went above their heads....miles above and had a fascinating conversation with someone about 3 rungs up the ladder, who agreed it was ridiculous that they were bothering me on such a trifling matter AND without any evidence bar someone whinging to them.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:11 pm 
gbn wrote:
If it discourages people from smoking in public and spreading their stench around, I'm all for it. The smell of cigarettes, AND many of the sweet, sickly vapes can be nauseating.


Wife is allergic to propylene glycol fumes which vapes produce in plumes...causes her airways to swell shut.
PHE conveniently forgot that it can be a serious lung irritant when they went gung ho for allowing them everywhere, shows methinks some PHB in PHE is a vaper, got a "free" day out from a vaping industry group and some glossy literature or possibly a backhander from the vaping lobby


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:36 am 
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Jules_ht wrote:
gbn wrote:
If it discourages people from smoking in public and spreading their stench around, I'm all for it. The smell of cigarettes, AND many of the sweet, sickly vapes can be nauseating.


Maybe that is how pedestrians and cyclists feel about your (and my) exhaust fumes.

Agree fully, would have no problem with cars being banned from city centres. I cycle most days (in the summer anyhow, big Jessie!!)I have nothing against smokers, I just think it is a habit that should be practiced in one's own property and not in public. I come home stinking of smoke every weekend due to other people's smoke, not nice

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:50 am 
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Clever way of turning things in similar circumstances.
We don't see whether the guy deliberately or unknowingly dropped the item but his reaction was great

https://youtu.be/n_izHa8xEwQ

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:18 am 
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Doesn't look like he got away with it though!

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