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 Post subject: Lights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Location: Worcestershire
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Hi All,

Apologies if this is dealt with in a previous post - I've been out of circulation for a long time and can't find anything. Lately, with increased fog, I have become more and more irritated by drivers who not only fail to use fog lights when appropriate, but actually fail to use lights at all. Nearly got done by someone in a grey car that came barrelling out of the fog halfway across the centre line with no lights on at all.

I imagine most of this is down to some people thinking "I don't need lights in daytime fog because they don't help me see any better" and some people, well, just being a bit absent-minded.

But

Who decided that it would be a good idea for all these new DRL's to be front lights only? I can't for one minute get the logic.

:loco:

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Location: Whitley Bay
Car Model: 96, C900, 9k, 9-3 & 9-5
Honeyman wrote:

Who decided that it would be a good idea for all these new DRL's to be front lights only? I can't for one minute get the logic.


I berated an old chap in Tynemouth for just driving at night (properly dark) with these on. I then did exactly the same thing as him in the US a few months later. Absolutely crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:42 pm 
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It is a new phenomenon! Plenty of people driving around with DRL on! They are totally unaware that they have no rear lights on as their dash lights up aswell(as they do on most modern cars) The only car that has rear lights on when the DRL are on , that I have seen in my travels, is a Volvo! ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Location: 'Ull
Car Model: 95 Aero Auto Est Stg 1 Noobed
Too many are now reliant on the automatic headlights that switch on when the ambient light reduces. They all forget that in the fog, the light isn't necessarily reduced sufficiently to revert from DRLs to full head/tail lights.

It's a matter of education, and I'm afraid instant prosecution if caught IMO.

People will soon learn if reading about a prosecution, or actually being the prosecuted. It's dangerous and or driving without due care etc.. Therefore a prosecutable offence.

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:02 am 
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Location: South West Scotland
Car Model: 9-3 1.8t & 9-5 1.9TiD
Ah fogs, you're either being blinded or running into the back of the tits.
I nearly ran into the back of an old codger once doing less than 15mph on the A1 (I was only doing 35). Old *** reported me, who was told to sod off by the built in cameras on this particular commercial vehicle, showing slow speed, no lights, and a light grey car that blended in perfectly.

Oh and these automatic headlights you mention Shalien,,,,,
Rode shotgun, someone with a new Qashqai or however its spelt.
Fully automatic headlights, except **he** wasn't able to differentiate between auto, and manual high beam, essentially blinding every poor sod coming the other way.

"did I tell you how great this car is?"
Yeah, can't say the same about the driver. Add in the ride height these people are absolved from suffering the same back!

Oh and only reason he switched the lights on? dark sky park, no street lamps, no light pollution, and DRL's wont actually show you anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:42 am 
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9-5s, 6 of 'em <sigh>
I too had a grey car with just sidelights appearing out of nowhere a couple of days ago.

I've also had numpty's in new and expensive cars with no lights on when I've come up behind them in the recent mist/fogs but discover they have the DRLs on, so that's fine then...

May I also add the ludicrous "fog" light that lights up when turning. they may be a good idea ad less than 5 mph in an unlit drive (that we all have) but the 4x4 lifestyle that went left then right through some roadworks at 20mph ish and first one then the other lit up looked stupid. Lights going on and off in your periphery sight causes me to look/check and it's distracting. Though I'm sure the salesman would have bigged the feature up and they love to say of they can see round corners. <rant paused for now>

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:16 am 
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Ah one of my favourite topics..

Fog lights

Not on when it's foggy
No lights at all when it's foggy
Only fog lights on
Front fogs on but rear fogs off
Fogs on because of blown headlamp bulb
DRLS - the reason I voted Brexit, these crazy stupid rules from Brussels. I have to endure the stupid EU policies, guidances, stubbornness everyday in my work.
and my absolute favourite - Put fogs on but continue to travel at 90 mph


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 Post subject: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:23 am 
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Location: Ingleby barwick, cleveland
Car Model: 2000 9-3 viggen convertible.
Seen a few cars this morning. Pitch black drl's on only and obviously no rear lights. The burks want banning.

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:40 pm
Posts: 155
Car Model: DE Saab 95 2.3 Aero stg1
Don't really get daytime running lights at all.

I come from a back ground of motorbikes. Most people know that it's harder to judge a vehicles speed when its lights are on. This is due to the eye not being able to focus on the travelling speeds of light. Specially on a motorbike as they are not that plus and bounce a lot due to less weight.

Maybe I am off here but I don't like DRL. I just prefer to select lights when required.

I had a fiat 500x for a hire car for over a month that had the lights that also come on whilst indicating and turning at certain angles of the steering. It was distracting as I thought some thing was coming up my inside or outside and that I'd failed to spot them.


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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:21 am 
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Location: NE Hants and SW France
Car Model: No SAAB now. Two in the past
I find that the increasing number of cars with DRLs, and those now being very bright, means that indicators are becoming far less visible. I have had a couple of moments recently when I only belatedly noticed that a car was turning.

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:22 am 
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Location: SW Herts
Car Model: 9-5 Aero est. 9-3 Carlsson
Light is a very complex subject, and I don't understand it well. But there are one or two things that are generally misunderstood. Light is not the thing as much as the perception of it.

I had a chat with a professor of optics a year or so ago and he pointed out many areas of motoring law where he thought things were wrong. Mainly in the area of lights on the front of a car.

When ambient light is good, you will be seen more easily the bigger your shape is. One solid colour helps this, so breaking it up with coloured stripes or turning on lights is bad.

Solid objects are seen best when they contrast with the background. This is the main problem. Roads are not "black", they have shiny surfaces that reflect light, but not always in the same way. Streetlights do not replace daylight. They are designed to illuminate the road surface so that objects on it are in silhouette. So, it's likely that a black car with no lights could be more visible than one with sidelights on. Headlights are so bright that they overcome the light background at night.

In fog you will be seen best if you emit more light. Either a headlight or a white car is best. You will see a white car in fog long before you see its sidelights. So high reflectivity of a car and headlights will get you seen in fog. Fog is not a background colour, so a silver car is going to be more visible in fog as it reflects. It does not merge with the fog.

Fog lights have nothing to do with being seen. Their only purpose originally was to lay light along the road so that the driver could see something. They were as low as possible to try and reduce light being reflected back to the driver's eyes. The beans are flat topped, to assist this. When mounted low, the beam is almost parallel with the road surface, so any bump in the road will make it point upwards and blind an oncoming driver. That's why they are banned from use when it's not foggy.

So...

If you want to be seen in bright daylight, drive a matt black car with no lights on.

If you want to be seen in fog drive a white car with headlights on.

If you want to be seen in bright street lighting drive a matt black car with no lights or headlights.

If you want to be seen at night on an unlit road, drive a white car with headlights on.

Your choice really! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:56 am 
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Light Pressure Turbo

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:35 pm
Posts: 581
Location: Staffordshire
Car Model: '91 9000cse 2.3T,'03 9-5 Aero
Have to agree with Mister Bee. With a combination of sunlight/overly bright DRLs the indicator is often 'lost' when in the modern elongated unitary light pod.


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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9-5s, 6 of 'em <sigh>
sgould wrote:
Light is a very complex subject, and I don't understand it well. But there are one or two things that are generally misunderstood. Light is not the thing as much as the perception of it.

I had a chat with a professor of optics a year or so ago and he pointed out many areas of motoring law where he thought things were wrong. Mainly in the area of lights on the front of a car.

When ambient light is good, you will be seen more easily the bigger your shape is. One solid colour helps this, so breaking it up with coloured stripes or turning on lights is bad.

Solid objects are seen best when they contrast with the background. This is the main problem. Roads are not "black", they have shiny surfaces that reflect light, but not always in the same way. Streetlights do not replace daylight. They are designed to illuminate the road surface so that objects on it are in silhouette. So, it's likely that a black car with no lights could be more visible than one with sidelights on. Headlights are so bright that they overcome the light background at night.

In fog you will be seen best if you emit more light. Either a headlight or a white car is best. You will see a white car in fog long before you see its sidelights. So high reflectivity of a car and headlights will get you seen in fog. Fog is not a background colour, so a silver car is going to be more visible in fog as it reflects. It does not merge with the fog.

Fog lights have nothing to do with being seen. Their only purpose originally was to lay light along the road so that the driver could see something. They were as low as possible to try and reduce light being reflected back to the driver's eyes. The beans are flat topped, to assist this. When mounted low, the beam is almost parallel with the road surface, so any bump in the road will make it point upwards and blind an oncoming driver. That's why they are banned from use when it's not foggy.

So...

If you want to be seen in bright daylight, drive a matt black car with no lights on.

If you want to be seen in fog drive a white car with headlights on.

If you want to be seen in bright street lighting drive a matt black car with no lights or headlights.

If you want to be seen at night on an unlit road, drive a white car with headlights on.

Your choice really! :)

I may actually have a large enough fleet to make these choices. Just need a "Fog" car. :)

The highlighted bit in the quote explains nicely how the zig-zag painting of ships in wartime works, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:16 pm 
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UKS Encyclopædia N-Z
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Location: SW Herts
Car Model: 9-5 Aero est. 9-3 Carlsson
Yes. :)

Some camouflage experts advise turning headlights on if you are heading towards an enemy and coming over a ruse where you will be silhouetted against the skyline.

The other issue is residual image colour. Fir instance, if you look at a red object and then look away, you will see a green shape in its place. Try looking at a red traffic light for a few seconds and then look away. You will see a green spot. It means that a red car glimpsed when you eyes are moving past it may be seen as green, which doesn't help if you are out in the country.

The residual colour for pale blue is pink. Which is why some aircraft were painted pink to avoid detection.

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Location: Wigan, Lancashire
Car Model: 9-5s, 6 of 'em <sigh>
sgould wrote:
Yes. :)

Some camouflage experts advise turning headlights on if you are heading towards an enemy and coming over a ruse where you will be silhouetted against the skyline.

The other issue is residual image colour. Fir instance, if you look at a red object and then look away, you will see a green shape in its place. Try looking at a red traffic light for a few seconds and then look away. You will see a green spot. It means that a red car glimpsed when you eyes are moving past it may be seen as green, which doesn't help if you are out in the country.

The residual colour for pale blue is pink. Which is why some aircraft were painted pink to avoid detection.

I knew that they painted some pink, never worked out why.

Again UKS is the place I learn most on any given day. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Full Pressure Turbo

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Location: Shropshire
Car Model: 1996 900 S Convertible - Pyxi
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 226-to-237
Interesting reading indeed :corn:

It is annoying and dangerous, the misuse of vehicle lights. I was recently being blinded when following behind a slow moving little car (nice old dear at the wheel!) in near dark conditions with 1 rear fog light on, when only a fine mist was apparent! No other lights on the car at all! What was the sense in that?

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Location: Bucks
Car Model: Saab NG 9-5 Aero
May I add in the stupidity of mounting the indicators inboard of the headlights?
Side lights and indicators should be the outermost lights at front and back.
Fog lights are fine when it is really foggy and there isn't much traffic but once there is a car behing there is no need for rear fog lights, if you have a car in front you can go back to headlights.
DRLs are a good idea but only if the rear lights are on at the same time and if there is a means of letting drivers know that the main lights aren't on.
Given the legal requirement for lights from Sunset to Sunrise it should be very simple to connect the lights to the GPS and switch the lights on automatically at sunset and off at sunrise, my GPS screen switches mode at these times so why not do the same with the lights. Doesn't solve the poor daylight visibility problem but it would make a difference.

PS I had automatic lights on the Jag, waste of time! They came on going under the M40 in broad day light but only once in the shadow of the bridge.


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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Light Pressure Turbo
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Car Model: 9-5 wagon
DRL's are actually supposed to dim or go out when indicators are used, seems to work fine on german cars, JLR have got it cracked also so why don't KIA's and Nissan Kumquats do the same, the number of them that have just turned 'without indicating' when they actually were but I wasn't able to see them past the blinding DRL's.
Automatic wipers, headlights, you know, as a human being with a brain and decent eyesight I am actually able to judge for myself when these things need activation, Brother in Law thinks they are great when you pass a truck in the damp the wipers come on less for me to think about, errm sorry, ever heard of anticipation, I seriously question whether if he can't cope with that whether he should be alowed to drive at all :cen:

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 Post subject: Re: Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:17 am
Posts: 1107
Location: Sheffield
Car Model: Softail Slim ®
Scottyf wrote:
Don't really get daytime running lights at all.

I come from a back ground of motorbikes. Most people know that it's harder to judge a vehicles speed when its lights are on. This is due to the eye not being able to focus on the travelling speeds of light. Specially on a motorbike as they are not that plus and bounce a lot due to less weight.

Maybe I am off here but I don't like DRL. I just prefer to select lights when required.

I had a fiat 500x for a hire car for over a month that had the lights that also come on whilst indicating and turning at certain angles of the steering. It was distracting as I thought some thing was coming up my inside or outside and that I'd failed to spot them.


Totally agree about DRLs. Really bad news for bikers, too. We just merge into this sea of blinding / glaring light.

So ironic - manufacturers initially denied the glare effect, but now many 'prestige' cars dim the DRL when the indicator is on so it can be seen.

Ooh, so 'tech' :wall:

EDIT: I'm REALLY starting to lose my sense of humour with this totally carp tech now. :evil:

Just picked my wife up in town and, driving home, encountered a 'prestige' motor approaching uphill with its lazer headlights blazing, DRLs etc. It was LITERALLY blinding. Had to bring the car to a halt*. It's absolutely ridiculous. I truly wish this arms race would end, and we could return to sensible lighting.

* Before anyone chimes in, my eyes are fine and actually were recently tested for a new pair of specs!

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